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  • Originally posted by pilatus View Post
    https://assets.gov.ie/77897/b6002c9a...Y-1544o4u6vK5C

    The link above is to a document released yesterday titled "Department of Defence - Defence Forces - Equipment Development Plan 2020-24"


    "Future programmes at pre planning stage
    Beyond the very significant range of projects already underway or in existing planning streams, the EDP highlights others that are expected to progress in future phases of the plan. This is not an exhaustive list but gives an indication of the scale and range of programmes that will enter planning. At this stage there is not a definite commitment to pursue, or an associated time-frame, for these. These include a primary radar system, air combat interceptor, replacement of the two Coastal Patrol vessels, acquisition of diver based mine counter-measures and counter improvised explosive device equipment, field catering equipment, various vehicles such as replacement mini-buses, military trailers and an armoured ambulance as well as various surveillance and explosive ordnance disposal equipment."

    It's worth a read, there is mention of an upgrade for the PC9's, acquisition of a ground based radar for national coverage, sonar suites for the P60's amongst other items.
    It’s no different from the WP, just something they might look at, at some point in the future and might decide on... No commitment to anything what so ever as has been commented in the thread on that topic.

    Comment


    • Should we not just lease some Gripens and be done with it? South African pilots can fly ours, to keep their eye in until we train some pilots of our own up in Sweden or Brasil.
      German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
      German 2: Private? I am a general!
      German 1: That is the bad news.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
        Should we not just lease some Gripens and be done with it? South African pilots can fly ours, to keep their eye in until we train some pilots of our own up in Sweden or Brasil.
        Ok great idea..

        For what purpose, to occasionally fly along side a Russian Bear, and because they look good at airshows??

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
          Ok great idea..

          For what purpose, to occasionally fly along side a Russian Bear, and because they look good at airshows??
          Is Ireland an independent sovereign nation?
          Are we solely responsible for the defence and policing of our airspace?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
            I'm considering getting a BMW R1250RT and a Mutsubishi Outlander PHEV. This is after I remodel the bathroom and rewire the house.
            (None of the above can be completed during the current financial year but will remain under consideration until sufficient funds allow.)
            I wont be getting too excited until a delegation from Saab, mcDonnell Douglas and General Dynamics are seen measuring the runway at Baldonnel.
            You may be waiting a long time for MDD or GD, the former was taken over by Boeing while GD got out of fighters selling that division off to Lockheed. (I would not ignore Eurofight, Dassault or KAI)
            While you may get the Outlander approved by the Head of Finance, you might need to have a sound argument to convince her of your need for the BMW R1250RT, those sound reasons are what the DF and DoD need to trash out before there will be a commitment.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by pilatus View Post
              https://assets.gov.ie/77897/b6002c9a...Y-1544o4u6vK5C

              The link above is to a document released yesterday titled "Department of Defence - Defence Forces - Equipment Development Plan 2020-24"


              "Future programmes at pre planning stage
              Beyond the very significant range of projects already underway or in existing planning streams, the EDP highlights others that are expected to progress in future phases of the plan. This is not an exhaustive list but gives an indication of the scale and range of programmes that will enter planning. At this stage there is not a definite commitment to pursue, or an associated time-frame, for these. These include a primary radar system, air combat interceptor, replacement of the two Coastal Patrol vessels, acquisition of diver based mine counter-measures and counter improvised explosive device equipment, field catering equipment, various vehicles such as replacement mini-buses, military trailers and an armoured ambulance as well as various surveillance and explosive ordnance disposal equipment."

              It's worth a read, there is mention of an upgrade for the PC9's, acquisition of a ground based radar for national coverage, sonar suites for the P60's amongst other items.
              That leads to an XML error. You sure of the link?

              Comment


              • It's working for me if you search on Google "Department of Defence - Defence Forces - Equipment Development Plan 2020-24", it should be the first to result.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by pilatus View Post
                  It's working for me if you search on Google "Department of Defence - Defence Forces - Equipment Development Plan 2020-24", it should be the first to result.
                  Thanks! https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/9b...elopment-plan/

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                    Is Ireland an independent sovereign nation?
                    Are we solely responsible for the defence and policing of our airspace?
                    Yes.
                    Can we defend our seas and land against any form of external aggression?

                    Surely it is obvious that the kind of investment involved in Fighter aircraft could and would make far more sense spread across the three services.

                    There is currently no external threat to Ireland, the Russians flying through the airspace is a Nuisance for sure, but I don't hear the Government calling the Russian Ambassador in for a chat.

                    So you are seriously advocating a Billion euro investment to Intercept a couple of Russian aircraft a year??

                    We have limited Maritime search capability, limited transport capability, limited tactical transport capability and virtually no armed air support to ground forces capability.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
                      Surely it is obvious that the kind of investment involved in Fighter aircraft could and would make far more sense spread across the three services.
                      We are an island with a land border with NI. Any conventional threat to the integrity of our State has to fly or sail here (or drive across the border from NI). A multi-role fighter has the possibility of interdiction of that.

                      There is currently no external threat to Ireland, the Russians flying through the airspace is a Nuisance for sure, but I don't hear the Government calling the Russian Ambassador in for a chat.
                      Currently! And I would qualify that with no likely external conventional threat. There are plenty of likely unconventional external threats!

                      They aren’t a nuisance they are hazards to navigation putting hundreds of lives in civilian airliners crossing Irish controlled airspace at risk.

                      So you are seriously advocating a Billion euro investment to Intercept a couple of Russian aircraft a year??
                      personally not necessarily

                      Comment


                      • thing is, if you're looking at protecting sovereign borders and knowing whats out there (within, roughly, the current resource envelope), we're effectively talking about abolishing the Army.

                        i think thats a perfectly rational, legitimate thing to argue for - if the Army budget we're split between the other two services you'd have an AC with Grippen, a handful of long ranged air search radars, long ranged MPA and ASW aircraft, and an NS with a dozen high-end OPV's with ASW and mine-clearing capability, and all of them with navalised helicopters, and possibly a couple of tankers. thats an entirely legitimate argument to make about the DF being able to monitor and assert Irish sovereignty.

                        but it does mean abolishing the army - and if you make that argument, you need to both accept that, and be honest about it.

                        personally, from an outsiders perspective, i think its an idea that has merit - not least because the Army is chronically under-resourced, and the body politic seems completely unwilling to either use it or fund it: if you can't use it because you won't fund it, and you wouldn't use it anyway, why bother having it?

                        the body politic seems much more at ease with the AC and NS, and they do protect the borders (except, of course, the land border...), so put the investment and effort into them instead.

                        to be clear, if you kept broadly within the current budget, and you wanted to make the Army into a coherent, Bde level fighting force, you'd have to bin the AC (barring whatever you decided to do about helicopters - and you'd need 20-odd medium lift helicopters, 20-odd utility helicopts, some AH, some UAV), and the NS.

                        there aren't any good options without doubling, trebling the defence budget...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                          thing is, if you're looking at protecting sovereign borders and knowing whats out there (within, roughly, the current resource envelope), we're effectively talking about abolishing the Army.

                          i think thats a perfectly rational, legitimate thing to argue for - if the Army budget we're split between the other two services you'd have an AC with Grippen, a handful of long ranged air search radars, long ranged MPA and ASW aircraft, and an NS with a dozen high-end OPV's with ASW and mine-clearing capability, and all of them with navalised helicopters, and possibly a couple of tankers. thats an entirely legitimate argument to make about the DF being able to monitor and assert Irish sovereignty.

                          but it does mean abolishing the army - and if you make that argument, you need to both accept that, and be honest about it.

                          personally, from an outsiders perspective, i think its an idea that has merit - not least because the Army is chronically under-resourced, and the body politic seems completely unwilling to either use it or fund it: if you can't use it because you won't fund it, and you wouldn't use it anyway, why bother having it?

                          the body politic seems much more at ease with the AC and NS, and they do protect the borders (except, of course, the land border...), so put the investment and effort into them instead.

                          to be clear, if you kept broadly within the current budget, and you wanted to make the Army into a coherent, Bde level fighting force, you'd have to bin the AC (barring whatever you decided to do about helicopters - and you'd need 20-odd medium lift helicopters, 20-odd utility helicopts, some AH, some UAV), and the NS.

                          there aren't any good options without doubling, trebling the defence budget...
                          The current resource envelope is approx €1 billion including pensions and DoD! Even disbanding the army wouldn’t cover the cost of a semi serious air and Naval deterrent

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
                            Yes.
                            Can we defend our seas and land against any form of external aggression?

                            Surely it is obvious that the kind of investment involved in Fighter aircraft could and would make far more sense spread across the three services.

                            There is currently no external threat to Ireland, the Russians flying through the airspace is a Nuisance for sure, but I don't hear the Government calling the Russian Ambassador in for a chat.

                            So you are seriously advocating a Billion euro investment to Intercept a couple of Russian aircraft a year??

                            We have limited Maritime search capability, limited transport capability, limited tactical transport capability and virtually no armed air support to ground forces capability.
                            Your question was for what purpose; to defend and police our airspace.

                            If you were to look at QRA in the rest of the Europe then you would see that the majority of reactions outside of the Baltic NATO Zone are in relation to civilian aircraft. It is not the Russian "Bear" that most react to but the pilot who selected the wrong AC frequency etc.

                            You will have noticed that I did not put a priority number on the topic because as you pointed out there are many areas which need improvement. That is why perhaps the blank sheet of paper bottom-up review is needed; why do we have 105mm light guns, against which fishing boat will we use the 76mm OTO Melara's, why do we have PC9M advanced trainers when the majority of pilots will not be high speed jet pilots?

                            The need for an air defence fighter does need to be properly evaluated and then prioritised like everything against what we need and not just against what we afford. It is like you want to go to a gun fight but can only afford a knife; then it may be better to save the money and stay at home!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                              Your question was for what purpose; to defend and police our airspace.

                              If you were to look at QRA in the rest of the Europe then you would see that the majority of reactions outside of the Baltic NATO Zone are in relation to civilian aircraft. It is not the Russian "Bear" that most react to but the pilot who selected the wrong AC frequency etc.

                              You will have noticed that I did not put a priority number on the topic because as you pointed out there are many areas which need improvement. That is why perhaps the blank sheet of paper bottom-up review is needed; why do we have 105mm light guns, against which fishing boat will we use the 76mm OTO Melara's, why do we have PC9M advanced trainers when the majority of pilots will not be high speed jet pilots?

                              The need for an air defence fighter does need to be properly evaluated and then prioritised like everything against what we need and not just against what we afford. It is like you want to go to a gun fight but can only afford a knife; then it may be better to save the money and stay at home!
                              Which we do militarily neutral seems to be what we are calling it these days

                              We provide some capabilities to react but definitely not deter

                              Comment


                              • Our European Neighbors have a military history and the resources to have an expeditionary capability across all three arms. As a result they have the capability to do Air Policing by default using the assets that they have for National Defence and attack.

                                We don't have a stated National Threat nor do have the resources or desire to be able to effect power across the globe.

                                The proposal is for Ireland to acquire front line fighter aircraft for Air Policing, they would have no other role, we have no stated convectional threat to our Country, we will not be deploying them as part of some larger force to conduct combat operations overseas and we would certainly not be a in a position to support them adequately if we did.

                                To effect the Air Policing role properly would involve the Purchase and manning of an integrated air defence network and most likely the requirement for AAR to adequately cover the Irish Claimed Air Space.

                                Next door they have planning and doctrine to address a shooting war with the Russians, and they have the political support to shoot down a hostile aircraft if required.

                                We have none of those things.

                                While it is laudable to say we must defend our airspace the realities are far more complex.

                                I have a serious fear that somehow some government might actually go ahead with the Lease/Purchase of a Gripen type aircraft, the ensuing running costs would mean the aircraft would rarely fly and would serve our their careers on standby.

                                Remember the Fouga's retired with about 2000hrs on the airframe, this was largely because there was no role for the aircraft other then AFTS. Would be terrible to see history repeat itself.

                                A Russian Sub off the Atlantic shelf is a far more serious threat to us and Western Europe.

                                Comment

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