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  • Expected flight time for this type of aircraft according to SAAB is 200 hours per year, to a lifetime of 8500 hours at a cost per flight hour of $4600.
    How much does the ammo used by shooting teams in preparation for an all army cost?
    How much do the equestrian school pay on vet bills every year?
    How much do rounds for the 25 pounder saluting guns cost?
    How much did the new EoH motorcycles (ceremonial use only) cost? What will they cost on servicing and maintenance annually?
    There are so many things in the DF that cost money for no obvious military purposes but we still have them. Why not spend on something that may have little operational use but will at least have a military function?

    Comment


    • The costs of those listed capabilities pale into comparison compared to the costs of even the Gripen.

      They are all capabilities that are available because the DF has those assets for other primary purposes. Except for the Horses, although they have a requirement to self fund through competition.

      As I said the suggestion is to buy Fighter Aircraft for Air Policing in isolation.

      IMHO the quoted DOC for the aircraft seams on the low side and I assume it is based on various assumptions of intrinsic capabilities already present in a customer air arm.

      We obviously have a huge deficit infrastructure wise that would need too be addressed to even park the aircraft somewhere.

      From SAAB circa 2012
      1) The Saab Gripen is the least expensive of the aircraft under study in terms of cost per flight hour (CPFH). This is based on reported costs covering only:
      – Fuel used
      – Pre-flightpreparationandrepair
      – Scheduled airfield-level maintenance together with associated personnel
      costs
      2) At an estimated $4,700 per hour (2012 USD), the Gripen compares very favourably with the Block 40 / 50 F-16s which are its closest competitor at an estimated $7,000 per hour

      Doesn't even scratch the surface of the cost of operating these kind of aircraft.
      Last edited by Charlie252; 28 June 2020, 14:25.

      Comment


      • Justification of need
        Do we know the security situation for the next 40 years? Which would be the time-frame of the program.
        Will we be getting a bill from BoJo next year for the secret RAF deal?
        Would the aircraft only have a role as an interceptor? CAS? ASuW? Air policing as part of a peace-keeping?

        Cost
        The CPH always have to be taken with a massive pinch of salt, as no two manufacturers give publicly the full basis for their costs. Also the number of hours flown per year can have a massive impact as seen with the CPH of the Swedish NH90's as they were not flown as much as other aircraft.
        But taken the Saab figures and an annual usage of 200hrs per aircraft and 16 aircraft is around $15m, which is a bit low but even double that is only $30m!

        Timeline
        Even if we have had a Defence Review and identified that a fighter aircraft was necessary and a priority, then it would take 1-2 years to draw up the requirements, then the RFI/RFQ/selection would be another 3-4 years with the first production aircraft another 3-4 years after contact signing. So that would mean that there would be a lead-time of 10 years before an aircraft would be flying with and IAC roundel.

        Comment


        • Alenia Aermacchi F 346 Master .............. perhaps cheap enough

          Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
          The costs of those listed capabilities pale into comparison compared to the costs of even the Gripen.

          They are all capabilities that are available because the DF has those assets for other primary purposes. Except for the Horses, although they have a requirement to self fund through competition.

          As I said the suggestion is to buy Fighter Aircraft for Air Policing in isolation.

          IMHO the quoted DOC for the aircraft seams on the low side and I assume it is based on various assumptions of intrinsic capabilities already present in a customer air arm.

          We obviously have a huge deficit infrastructure wise that would need too be addressed to even park the aircraft somewhere.

          From SAAB circa 2012
          1) The Saab Gripen is the least expensive of the aircraft under study in terms of cost per flight hour (CPFH). This is based on reported costs covering only:
          – Fuel used
          – Pre-flightpreparationandrepair
          – Scheduled airfield-level maintenance together with associated personnel
          costs
          2) At an estimated $4,700 per hour (2012 USD), the Gripen compares very favourably with the Block 40 / 50 F-16s which are its closest competitor at an estimated $7,000 per hour

          Doesn't even scratch the surface of the cost of operating these kind of aircraft.

          ...........https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSrifam9zsU ........... perhaps cheap enough

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
            there aren't any good options without doubling, trebling the defence budget...
            Thing is - and Charlie352 I'm looking at you - a trebling of the defence budget is the only adult, actually independent not living in Mum and Dad's garage anymore , on par with any other semi-respectable country in the world thing we need to do. We need to treble it just to get to the minimum of what any other country with our budget would be spending.

            Being a country in charge of territory the security of which is of some interest to all our neighbours has responsibilities attached to it. Pony up.
            It's not like i'm even talking at approaching 2% of GDP or anything.

            Comment


            • If Ireland is providing foreign aid to countries that can afford to run squadrons of jet fighters, it should be able to afford them itself.

              The fact that the defence budget includes the pension payments for former members of the DF and wages of the DoD Is the first thing that should be stripped out of the DF budget and the money used for the defence of the country. (I hasten to add I’m in no way saying that DF pensions should be interfered with, just that they should not be included in DF budget).
              'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
              'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
              Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
              He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
              http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

              Comment


              • Originally posted by expat01 View Post
                Thing is - and Charlie352 I'm looking at you - a trebling of the defence budget is the only adult, actually independent not living in Mum and Dad's garage anymore , on par with any other semi-respectable country in the world thing we need to do. We need to treble it just to get to the minimum of what any other country with our budget would be spending.

                Being a country in charge of territory the security of which is of some interest to all our neighbours has responsibilities attached to it. Pony up.
                It's not like i'm even talking at approaching 2% of GDP or anything.
                Why me??

                I agree that the budget should be increased, but in reality doubling is unlikely.

                So cut your cloth to its measure and spend whatever increased funds might become available on sensible military capabilities.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by expat01 View Post
                  Thing is - and Charlie352 I'm looking at you - a trebling of the defence budget is the only adult, actually independent not living in Mum and Dad's garage anymore , on par with any other semi-respectable country in the world thing we need to do. We need to treble it just to get to the minimum of what any other country with our budget would be spending.

                  Being a country in charge of territory the security of which is of some interest to all our neighbours has responsibilities attached to it. Pony up.
                  It's not like i'm even talking at approaching 2% of GDP or anything.
                  There is not anyone on this forum who would not welcome an increase in defence spending. At present there is only one body that could force an increase and that is the EU. The debate is getting better and more informed in Ireland but there is a long way to go until we reach 2%GNI or anywhere near that. Compared with today that is a 5 times increase.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                    There is not anyone on this forum who would not welcome an increase in defence spending. At present there is only one body that could force an increase and that is the EU. The debate is getting better and more informed in Ireland but there is a long way to go until we reach 2%GNI or anywhere near that. Compared with today that is a 5 times increase.
                    Absolutely agree, but if guys here were to compile the DF shopping list, would Fighter Aircraft be at the top the list.

                    Funnily when I advocated for a Herc class aircraft, there were guys who said there wasn't enough work to justify it..

                    And yet a Squadron of Fighter Aircraft is more palatable!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
                      If Ireland is providing foreign aid to countries that can afford to run squadrons of jet fighters, it should be able to afford them itself.
                      The whole thing around aid needs to be looked at, is it better to give aid or to actually pay a decent price for commodities we buy from those countries? Even things like clothes donations have done more damage than good as they have devastated the local cloths industry in many countries.

                      But I have to somewhat agree that we give almost as much in aid as our defence budget and that as stated the countries getting the aid have much better funded and equipped military than our DF.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
                        Absolutely agree, but if guys here were to compile the DF shopping list, would Fighter Aircraft be at the top the list.

                        Funnily when I advocated for a Herc class aircraft, there were guys who said there wasn't enough work to justify it..

                        And yet a Squadron of Fighter Aircraft is more palatable!
                        I agreed Strategic/Tactical heavy lift would be a higher priority as would proper medium lift helicopters.

                        Comment


                        • Priorities:
                          1 - pay the people that we have a proper wage
                          2 - decide what capabilities we want them to deliver
                          3 - resource it

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
                            Yes.
                            Can we defend our seas and land against any form of external aggression?

                            Surely it is obvious that the kind of investment involved in Fighter aircraft could and would make far more sense spread across the three services.

                            [B]There is currently no external threat to Ireland, the Russians flying through the airspace is a Nuisance for sure, but I don't hear the Government calling the Russian Ambassador in for a chat.

                            So you are seriously advocating a Billion euro investment to Intercept a couple of Russian aircraft a year??

                            We have limited Maritime search capability, limited transport capability, limited tactical transport capability and virtually no armed air support to ground forces capability.
                            The most likely threat to Ireland is to do with fishing I would say, and if the likes of Spain (They mess about in Gibraltar waters) sends up a gunboat to shoo away the NS, they may think twice about going down that road if we could shake a bigger stick. If we choose not to police our own airspace someone else will as is happening at the moment. The understanding we signed with the UK is just to save face they were going to do it anyway.
                            Last edited by sofa; 28 June 2020, 21:52.

                            Comment


                            • There is a bit more happening between spain and the gibraltar waters than fishermen.
                              Their problem lies with the soon to be no longer EU citizens trying to enforce a territory that they never agreed to.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by sofa View Post
                                The most likely threat to Ireland is to do with fishing I would say, and if the likes of Spain (They mess about in Gibraltar waters) sends up a gunboat to shoo away the NS, they may think twice about going down that road if we could shake a bigger stick. If we choose not to police our own airspace someone else will as is happening at the moment. The understanding we signed with the UK is just to save face they were going to do it anyway.
                                The most likely threats are disruption to our democratic processes, disinformation, cyber attacks, natural disasters (including pandemics and animal diseases), disruption of rules based global and regional organisations and Brexit.

                                Comment

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