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  • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
    Given the well known problems with the DOD, a number of the approaches are made minister to minister.
    I heard, from a reliable source, that when the NS wanted money for ships, and the Minister for Defence wasn't after getting the memo, the then Taoiseach (a big navy fan) went directly to minister for finance to ask Minister for Defence when he intended bringing memo to cabinet for new ships.
    The DoD don't like to tell the minister what the DF want. They try to avoid telling him anyone wants anything.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
      On this topic and the general topic of the budget IMHO there only factor that will bring significant change is the EU. De facto the EU is a political organisaion and now that the Brits are gone it will slowly reform and become a more integrated Union. We are part of the Union and we see our future very much linked to that Union, and like every club its members will have obligations. In the realm of defence it is the Common Security and Defence Policy to which we signed up too, even if some still hold up the old outdated banner "we are neutral".

      The exit of the UK, Covid-19 and the developing security situation on the borders of the EU will drive that change. We already see the discussion over the budget and Covid-19 bailout how some countries believe that others should do more. Most of the EU is in NATO and they are raising their budgets to the infamous 2%, now while we are not members of NATO the day will come when those 21+3 look west at us. A nation that has major benefits from the Union yet in this area does not contribute like the rest, what do you think the EU would do? There will be political pressure and a lot of it. When that day comes (2-4 years time) we will have had to have grown up and become adults in terms of defence.

      Options could be;
      (a) We could do nothing and most likely be seen as not committed to the EU by the other nations.
      (b) We could just contribute more to the common EU budget, like the difference between our defence budget and the EU average as % of GNI.
      (c) We could finally take the common defence of the EU seriously and start committing to defence resources required.
      (d) We could do an Irexit.

      The change will come from external and the problem then is that the solution is usually not the preferred option.
      Sean Lamass once answered to a question on EEC defence. If its worth joining its worth defending.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
        Any attempts by the Air Corps to acquire an ability to interfere with Russian flights will attract the attention of the Russian disinformation apparatus, and it will attempt to discourage public support.
        Plus our homegrown middleclass lefties who bang on about US flights into Shannon will do their bit

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
          Why would a minister have to ask a CS for approval?

          Sorry, but I think there's a streak of using the CS/DOD as a convenient target - and yes, the toxic/poisonous attitude that the DOD has towards defence is well known throughout Europe - very few of the offers/initial conversations I've heard about, from the UK, France, Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Canada have been met with any kind of enthusiasm. That may be DF and ministers being beaten down, or not wanting to their hopes up, but the attitude isn't constructive or about problem solving, or understanding how it would benefit defence and persuading others of that.

          If you get a response it's just a list of barriers - not problems to be solved - just barriers. Truth is, o don't think there's any real appetite for overseas exercises, even when all the logistics are laid on.
          About 20 years ago the DF made a bid to run their own budget just like our Police force. CS fought it with the line on a radio interview that they were protecting the state from the danger of a military takeover. Interviewer replied that the most heavily armed group in the county would not be deterred just because some civil servant locks the cheque book in a drawer.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by sofa View Post
            Sean Lamass once answered to a question on EEC defence. If its worth joining its worth defending.


            https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/l...urope-1.446998
            Last edited by sofa; 29 June 2020, 23:40.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
              Why would a minister have to ask a CS for approval?

              Sorry, but I think there's a streak of using the CS/DOD as a convenient target - and yes, the toxic/poisonous attitude that the DOD has towards defence is well known throughout Europe - very few of the offers/initial conversations I've heard about, from the UK, France, Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Canada have been met with any kind of enthusiasm. That may be DF and ministers being beaten down, or not wanting to their hopes up, but the attitude isn't constructive or about problem solving, or understanding how it would benefit defence and persuading others of that.

              If you get a response it's just a list of barriers - not problems to be solved - just barriers. Truth is, o don't think there's any real appetite for overseas exercises, even when all the logistics are laid on.
              I’m absolutely not doubting you for one second but this is reality.

              If DoD don’t want something to happen they will actively attempt to block it.

              The Minister says x is happening, the DoD advises against and that is the best case
              Last edited by DeV; 30 June 2020, 01:17.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by sofa View Post
                About 20 years ago the DF made a bid to run their own budget just like our Police force. CS fought it with the line on a radio interview that they were protecting the state from the danger of a military takeover. Interviewer replied that the most heavily armed group in the county would not be deterred just because some civil servant locks the cheque book in a drawer.
                with regard to the DF actually running their own budget, would you really trust VSOs with the cheque book? What financial training have they, that wouild justify giving them the keys to the safe? Are they qualified accountants or tax experts? Have they any proven budgeting experience? Would they piss it all away on shiny things?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                  with regard to the DF actually running their own budget, would you really trust VSOs with the cheque book? What financial training have they, that wouild justify giving them the keys to the safe? Are they qualified accountants or tax experts? Have they any proven budgeting experience? Would they piss it all away on shiny things?
                  Garda Commissioner holds the chequebook for the Garda Budget, not the Sec Gen of the DoJ. He has as much financial training as the CoS (and probably more qualified to manage a budget than SecGen Dod). They don't get to that position without having to manage an account or two along the way.
                  German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
                  German 2: Private? I am a general!
                  German 1: That is the bad news.

                  Comment


                  • We also have to get away from the mindset that it's a great thing that the DOD returns money to the DOF...use the fecking budget lads.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Rocinante View Post
                      We also have to get away from the mindset that it's a great thing that the DOD returns money to the DOF...use the fecking budget lads.
                      If anything, it shows budget mismanagement. Fine to hand it back when all projects are completed, but this has not been the case.
                      German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
                      German 2: Private? I am a general!
                      German 1: That is the bad news.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Rocinante View Post
                        We also have to get away from the mindset that it's a great thing that the DOD returns money to the DOF...use the fecking budget lads.
                        And yet there are 2 (Good) roads that my local council digs up in Q4 annually to spend the budget

                        Comment


                        • Sorry if someone has already posted these articles:

                          https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/why-...rish-airspace/
                          https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/why-...n-uk-airspace/

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                            with regard to the DF actually running their own budget, would you really trust VSOs with the cheque book? What financial training have they, that wouild justify giving them the keys to the safe? Are they qualified accountants or tax experts? Have they any proven budgeting experience? Would they piss it all away on shiny things?
                            It doesn’t mean that NS Ensign can go an purchase the MRV there are checks, balances and controls. With control comes responsibility and training

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                              And yet there are 2 (Good) roads that my local council digs up in Q4 annually to spend the budget
                              That comes from the opposite budget mindset of Use it or Lose it, especially worse when rules exist to stop Budget holders from diverting any excess money to something else which may benefit from it.
                              It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
                              It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
                              It was a new age...It was the end of history.
                              It was the year everything changed.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                                And yet there are 2 (Good) roads that my local council digs up in Q4 annually to spend the budget
                                Hopefully they not only dig them up but repair them before the money runs out.
                                We only look at the number of road widen schemes etc, started late in the year to burn the money that then never get completed as the money is burned by the end of the year and the scheme has not been budgeted for.

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