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  • Originally posted by CTU View Post
    For those who say the Irish government wouldn't waste money on building a new airfield on the west coast I give you Cleggan Aerodrome in Galway.

    https://irishexaminer.com/breakingne...de-895268.html
    https://maps.app.goo.gl/mqAdYgL8asY5XRaM9

    Now I am not saying that this airfield in its current state is suitable for "Fast Jet" operations, but it shows that if they wanted to build a new base on the west coast they could.
    Re Cleggan, unfortunately they couldn't even paint the numbers at the correct end on the first attempt.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
      no, you're confusing tasks that are time critical and those that are fuel critical. if they are based near Dublin and have to go out on a Bear hunt you've used the best part of 300 miles of their (already limited) range on communting. if they are based at Shannon and have to put manners on some GA idiot over Dublin they can still be intimidating him in 14 minutes - thats, reasonably, enough time.

      Conningsby is further from London than Shannon is from Dublin.

      Baldonnels location might useful for Air Policing over Dublin, but it has huge disadvantages with being so close to a large population centre - your Gripens are going to make a lot of noise, and the noise generated by a Gripen at MTOW going balls-to-the-wall is not something to be sniffed at.

      of course, the best option is to base all AC aircraft at some base out on the west coast, and if you felt the need for particular occasions like EU summits etc.. you could forward deploy to Dublin.
      I am with that. Move the AC to Shannon (seems to be the consensus here?) and call it good. Turn Baldonnel into a housing estate.

      Comment


      • I had a bit of a poke at cost per flight hour

        F-35 $32,500

        F-22A Raptor - $68,362

        F-15C Eagle - $41,921

        F-15E Strike Eagle - $32,094

        F-16C Fighting Falcon - $22,514

        A-10C Thunderbolt II (Warthog) $17,716

        Rafale $18,000

        Typhoon $6,800

        (no source given)

        and according to the wikipaedia article abut the Gripen

        A 2012 Jane's Aerospace and Defense Consulting study compared the operational costs of a number of modern combat aircraft, concluding that Gripen had the lowest cost per flight hour (CPFH) when fuel used, pre-flight preparation and repair, and scheduled airfield-level maintenance together with associated personnel costs were combined. The Gripen had an estimated CPFH of US$4,700 whereas the next lowest, the F-16 Block 40/50, had a 49% higher CPFH at $7,000.

        That sounds pretty conclusive.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
          There has been a discussion about range and how far an aircraft would have to fly, and it is not as big as many think.
          The best I could find to illustrate is the following link:
          https://notaminfo.com/irelandmap

          There are three things I think are getting a bit mixed:
          (a) Irish sovereign airscape, the 12 mile limit.
          (b) Irish controlled airspace, that which is under the control of the Shannon FIR.
          (c) EEZ, this has no relation to airspace, at least not yet.

          So basically we are concerned with the first two and what the sharp eyed will notice is they do not always match. That is because ATC like to have straight lines. So not all Irish control airspace is Irish sovereign airspace, there are parts of NI airspace in the Shannon FIR. And on the other side not all Irish sovereign airspace (most off Donegal) is within the Shannon FIR (It is similar with the SAR areas).
          We note that none of this is required for intercepting an aircraft that we want to keep an eye on - like a Bear or Blackjack.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by DeV View Post
            There is no road in Ireland straight enough over 800 metres to achieve BAS90 unfortunately
            I doubt that very much. A lot of the recent motorways have stretches of greater than 5 km or more that are certainly straight enough. I can think of at least half a dozen places on the M system that are easily long enough. I know of at least two fields near Kildare that are 500 acres in size (rare but they exist) and can give you over a thousand metres in any direction.

            Comment


            • It was a joke!

              Comment


              • I recall an old study of hourly flight costs and one of the big factors,believe it or not, was tyres and brakes. The aircraft in the survey was the EE Lightning and it would consume it's main tyres in a couple of sorties and brake units in about a week and one of the limiting factors of sortie rate per aircraft was the availability of brakes and braking parachutes. I wonder what the consumption rate of those items is,for the modern fighters listed above.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                  I'm considering getting a BMW R1250RT and a Mutsubishi Outlander PHEV. This is after I remodel the bathroom and rewire the house.
                  (None of the above can be completed during the current financial year but will remain under consideration until sufficient funds allow.)
                  I wont be getting too excited until a delegation from Saab, mcDonnell Douglas and General Dynamics are seen measuring the runway at Baldonnel.
                  The bathroom remodel will no doubt exceed and budgetary commitments and the Bike will be down graded to a Yamaha DT 175 with the Outlander become a second had ex DF pajero... the house rewire won't take place until after the place burns to the ground

                  Future equipment procurements will be researched on Done Deal
                  Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                    I last heard it in 1994, and to say my eardrums were offended is an understatement. You can feel the damage being done as it literally tears apart the air around it.
                    No clip will do justice to how horrible it sounds. That crackle noise is when you try to stick your fist into your ear to block it out.


                    To the aerosexuals among us that is the sweetest of music...after the F104....but in fairness Harriers were quite noisy as well
                    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                      I had a bit of a poke at cost per flight hour

                      F-35 $32,500

                      F-22A Raptor - $68,362

                      F-15C Eagle - $41,921

                      F-15E Strike Eagle - $32,094

                      F-16C Fighting Falcon - $22,514

                      A-10C Thunderbolt II (Warthog) $17,716

                      Rafale $18,000

                      Typhoon $6,800

                      (no source given)

                      and according to the wikipaedia article abut the Gripen

                      A 2012 Jane's Aerospace and Defense Consulting study compared the operational costs of a number of modern combat aircraft, concluding that Gripen had the lowest cost per flight hour (CPFH) when fuel used, pre-flight preparation and repair, and scheduled airfield-level maintenance together with associated personnel costs were combined. The Gripen had an estimated CPFH of US$4,700 whereas the next lowest, the F-16 Block 40/50, had a 49% higher CPFH at $7,000.

                      That sounds pretty conclusive.
                      A quick look at the figures shows why these types of comparisons without references or details are dubious.
                      There is the F-16C at $22,514 and then the F-16 Block 40/50 (also a C model) at $7,000
                      The Rafale at $18,000 and the Typhoon at $6,800. This puts the Typhoon not only much lower than the very similar Rafale but lower than the F-16 Block 40/50.

                      Unless all the details of the calculation are known and are the same or at least very similar such as number of flight hours per year such figures are virtually meanless. For example in 2009 the German Airforce calculated the CPFH of the Eurofighter at 73.992 Euro.
                      http://dipbt.bundestag.de/dip21/btd/17/027/1702787.pdf

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                        I recall an old study of hourly flight costs and one of the big factors,believe it or not, was tyres and brakes. The aircraft in the survey was the EE Lightning and it would consume it's main tyres in a couple of sorties and brake units in about a week and one of the limiting factors of sortie rate per aircraft was the availability of brakes and braking parachutes. I wonder what the consumption rate of those items is,for the modern fighters listed above.
                        The following report from the RAND Corp gives an idea of some of the methods used by the USA to calculate CPFH, other nations will differ.

                        https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD1000756.pdf

                        The report does refer to the different aircraft/system SAR reports which do contain a CPFH, however recently when the discussion was on the C-130 it could be noticed that the CPFH calculated in the SAR report was very different that that of the RNZAF. So the comparison is going to be difficult.

                        On the specific topic of the EE Lightening, the MLG was a sub-optimal design, it was very narrow in order to fit into the thin wings. For this aircraft was performance king. But normally any consumable such as tyres would be included.

                        Comment


                        • Just to show how carefully we have to handle CPFH here is an article which claims sources in the US DoD and the USAF, yet the values for the same aircraft do not always match.

                          https://fighterjetsworld.com/air/mai...er-jets/11995/

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                          • Not forgetting cost per hour (as MATS figures show) also depends on the hours flown.

                            If you fly 1000 hrs rather than 100 hrs your fixed cost per hour is lower but then you will possibly required more scheduled maintenance

                            Comment


                            • If you leased in a quantity of fighters,then you could operate a variation of the "power by the hour" scheme,which is very common for leased aircraft; ie, for every hour of engine life used in flight,you pay a flat rate and beyond a certain agreed annual rate,you pay more. So, if you agreed to fly 100 hrs per airframe per year,including training flights, then you pay extra above that. If you burn off military stores like missiles and gun rounds, then you pay a certain amount. You could easily set up a workable scheme that covered all aspects of a QRA station's operation over a fixed term. It certainly isnt impossible, given the SAR system runs on a lease plan.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                                If you leased in a quantity of fighters,then you could operate a variation of the "power by the hour" scheme,which is very common for leased aircraft; ie, for every hour of engine life used in flight,you pay a flat rate and beyond a certain agreed annual rate,you pay more. So, if you agreed to fly 100 hrs per airframe per year,including training flights, then you pay extra above that. If you burn off military stores like missiles and gun rounds, then you pay a certain amount. You could easily set up a workable scheme that covered all aspects of a QRA station's operation over a fixed term. It certainly isnt impossible, given the SAR system runs on a lease plan.
                                200 hrs per year is the expected usage by Saab standards. Per aircraft.
                                Our country is relatively small.
                                Have Sweden changed over to the E model Gripen yet? If they have, then their old C/D models might be available soon for leasing.
                                German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
                                German 2: Private? I am a general!
                                German 1: That is the bad news.

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