Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Defending the Irish airspace

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
    Both the JAS-39 and the FA-50 could be capable of providing air policing, both are very similar in terms of weight and have almost the same engine. The advantage the JAS-39 has its its integrated suite of avioncs, its ECM package and the fusion of data. Basically the FA-50 is like an early F16A (Block 10/15) in terms of avionics.
    The early F-16 used the AN/APG-66 which is used in the basic T-50. The far more modern EL/M-2032 is used in the TA-50 and FA-50. KAI are currently working on integrating a AESA radar and at Block 20 have already have BVR and Link 16. One costs around Eur30m the other quite a bit more of a leap from that.

    Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
    The FA-50 does have two major advantages over the M-346, the first is that its rate of climb is almost double and the second is that it has an intern cannon. This is important for air policing as it means should there be an unresponsive target a burst of tracer can be shot off as a warning before having to go to an AAM.

    What aircraft is better would depend on what the requirements in the tender were.
    Indeed.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
      I appreciate what you are saying, however, while the T50 variants have been around a while, the model you propose has not.
      It is the same basic aircraft mate. They have simply a different level of avionic fit out that relates to their role.

      Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
      The FA50 has not had widespread use, except for the Phillipine Air Force, and the Iraqi Air force (no doubt approved by governments who don't want either to have actual useful Interceptors, to maintain the local status quo.
      The FA-50 is a very good capable aircraft. The RoKAF fly 60 to do the very air policing role you wish for. With the FA-50 you are getting a near Gripen C - F-16 Block 50 for half the money, based on OEM components.

      Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
      Korean usage of the type also I have to take with a grain of salt.

      How are you suppose to get international orders if even the country of production does not select it.
      They have - including a very recent order of the TA-50. Their first order of the TA-50 variant was in 2011. Thailand and Indonesia have also bought the the TA-50 specification with local optional differences. The comment about Koreans says a lot and is basically racist nonsense.

      Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
      If we are going down that road, then better off sticking wil a locally produced M-346 which seems to be winning all the competitions the FA50 is losing.
      The M-346 could also make a very reasonable fist of it too. It is not locally produced. It is made in Sweden which is not Ireland. The success at winning export Comps between the T-50 family (172 in service) and M-346 (96 in Service) is about even stevens.

      Comment


      • We should not fall down the hole of "my aircraft is better than your aircraft", even if we are all guilt of that at times. For those that cannot avoid this may I recommend the following:

        https://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Mili.../dp/B01931JR28

        There are many items related to the provision of QRA that we have not discussed: how many planes will we need? will it be 24/7/365? What will be the pilot rotations? Will the aircraft be limited to QRA? What transformational effect would the introduction of such a capability have on the DF as a whole? Would the aircraft ever be deployed as an air component of a peacekeeping action?

        We can still discuss equipment but not in "my plane, your plane".

        Comment


        • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
          We should not fall down the hole of "my aircraft is better than your aircraft", even if we are all guilt of that at times. For those that cannot avoid this may I recommend the following:

          https://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Mili.../dp/B01931JR28

          There are many items related to the provision of QRA that we have not discussed: how many planes will we need? will it be 24/7/365? What will be the pilot rotations? Will the aircraft be limited to QRA? What transformational effect would the introduction of such a capability have on the DF as a whole? Would the aircraft ever be deployed as an air component of a peacekeeping action?

          We can still discuss equipment but not in "my plane, your plane".
          Can’t discuss anything till we have radar
          Last edited by DeV; 7 July 2020, 18:35.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Anzac View Post
            The comment about Koreans says a lot and is basically racist nonsense.
            Bang out of order this. The comment relates to the country of manufacture using a home-grown design not being a reliable
            comparison.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Jetjock View Post
              Bang out of order this. The comment relates to the country of manufacture using a home-grown design not being a reliable
              comparison.
              Just sit back and think about your comment for a minute.

              It meas that we should ignore the F16 usage by the USAF, we should ignore the Grippen usage by the Swedish! The idea that is the country of manufacture uses the aircraft that the experience of that country is to be ignored is silly

              Comment


              • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                We should not fall down the hole of "my aircraft is better than your aircraft", even if we are all guilt of that at times. For those that cannot avoid this may I recommend the following:

                https://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Mili.../dp/B01931JR28

                There are many items related to the provision of QRA that we have not discussed: how many planes will we need? will it be 24/7/365? What will be the pilot rotations? Will the aircraft be limited to QRA? What transformational effect would the introduction of such a capability have on the DF as a whole? Would the aircraft ever be deployed as an air component of a peacekeeping action?

                We can still discuss equipment but not in "my plane, your plane".
                personally, and thinking politically, i take the view that if you spend huge wedges of cash on X headline capability - in this case QRA/Air Policing - and it then turns out that the system you've bought can only do it 9-5, monday to friday, or has some other crippling limitiation, you're going to take a huge political/reputational hit that will cripple any attempt to buy the next system/capability.

                when something becomes a culturally ingrained joke - think of the 9-5 Swiss Air Force, or the DF's own Deafness scandal/scam, or the UK's now 20+ years out of date SA80 that doesn't work... it creates a deep vein of sceptacism about your ability to do anything.

                i'm tempted ask of any finer opportunity for mischeivous Vlad to embarrass/destablise an Irish government/body politic that had got a bit more strident and bought X type for (weekday) QRA than by very publicly trialing his coat up and down the west coast on a saturday afternoon...

                Comment


                • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                  Just sit back and think about your comment for a minute.

                  It meas that we should ignore the F16 usage by the USAF, we should ignore the Grippen usage by the Swedish! The idea that is the country of manufacture uses the aircraft that the experience of that country is to be ignored is silly
                  My comment relates to what is an unfounded and serious allegation of racism and not to the merits of the argument.

                  In any case, I will put American and Swedish self use of home-grown designs streets ahead of Korea, or Pakistan(JF17), or India (Tejas) or any first time homegrown design - regardless of outside design help. Both countries have long histories of not only building quality aircraft but equally importantly supporting export aircraft. So yes I will disregard use by the Koreans until they have built the reputation of the other two. Does that make me a racist or a realist? You only pull one of those cards when you have lost the argument.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Anzac View Post
                    It is the same basic aircraft mate. They have simply a different level of avionic fit out that relates to their role.

                    The FA-50 is a very good capable aircraft. The RoKAF fly 60 to do the very air policing role you wish for. With the FA-50 you are getting a near Gripen C - F-16 Block 50 for half the money, based on OEM components.

                    They have - including a very recent order of the TA-50. Their first order of the TA-50 variant was in 2011. Thailand and Indonesia have also bought the the TA-50 specification with local optional differences. The comment about Koreans says a lot and is basically racist nonsense.

                    The M-346 could also make a very reasonable fist of it too. It is not locally produced. It is made in Sweden which is not Ireland. The success at winning export Comps between the T-50 family (172 in service) and M-346 (96 in Service) is about even stevens.
                    Mate,
                    Where the hell do you get racism from me saying the Koreans buying a korean built aircraft does not make it good? It's not racism, it's economics. for years the government had a huge campaign for us all to "Buy Irish", even when the non-irish made product would have been cheaper, and possibly superior. Buy Irish though and you support the local economy and local jobs. It only stopped when the EEC pointed out that we were all part of a greater economic block now, and that sort of protectionism was not good for business.
                    It would be unpatriotic for the South Korean military not to support the South Korean military industry. If there was an Irish manufacturer of jets you can be sure I would be jumping up and down here trying to convince the Irish Air Corps to buy the first 100 to show the rest of the word how good they are.
                    The UK military has suffered from it for years. "Not built here" has seen them buy dodgy rifles, aircraft, armour and ships when tried and tested versions of what they needed were already on the market made elsewhere. Only if their local industry tied in with that manufacturer would they invest in the Product.

                    Locally produced means made in Europe (Italy). It is much easier economically for us to get EU funding for a European built aircraft. Sweden/Italy being in the EU, it is party to many trading agreements with the EU that Korea is not.

                    If Gripen was only used by Sweden (like the flying tank that was Viggen) then yes, I would be reluctant to support it. But it has had since it's introduction Many substantial foreign orders.
                    And you just have to look at the Bradley AFV to know that not everything the US produces in large quantities is fit for purpose. Some may generate serious fanfare, and enter service under a US flag, but foreign orders do not come, and the type silently passes out of service. (F22)
                    Last edited by na grohmiti; 7 July 2020, 11:30.
                    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
                    German 2: Private? I am a general!
                    German 1: That is the bad news.

                    Comment


                    • Time to get the pipe out, sit by the fire and enjoy a glass or two of the water of life.

                      Sometime people say things that are perceived by others in a totally different way than the person intended.

                      Both the M346 and T-50 families of aircraft are good combat aircraft, both have had some limited success in a very small market. I would be over the moon if the IAC had either in its inventory.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Jetjock View Post
                        My comment relates to what is an unfounded and serious allegation of racism and not to the merits of the argument.

                        In any case, I will put American and Swedish self use of home-grown designs streets ahead of Korea, or Pakistan(JF17), or India (Tejas) or any first time homegrown design - regardless of outside design help. Both countries have long histories of not only building quality aircraft but equally importantly supporting export aircraft. So yes I will disregard use by the Koreans until they have built the reputation of the other two. Does that make me a racist or a realist? You only pull one of those cards when you have lost the argument.
                        I have experience of KAI and have seen their design and production facilities for the T-50 aircraft. KAI is on a par with many western companies and in some areas it is ahead. They are the new boy on the block but that means they are willing to work more with the customer. If they agree something then they will do everything to deliver because the slightest hint of loss of face is something they want to avoid. Comparing that with the situation of the A400M, Eurofighter, F35 etc. No matter how much bad press these companies have they just continue on as before normally with the expression "we are the only game in town".

                        What should not be forgotten about the usage of aircraft in RoKAF service is that they are constantly in a "near war" condition. But they also now have gained experience of supporting their product in foreign air forces, currently 4. So far I have not heard of any negative feedback. But their exports have not be limited to the T-50 they have also exported their KT-1 trainer to 3 additional countries.

                        But it is not certain that they would compete. For the Croatian contract they declined to compete as the requirements were beyond what the T-50 platform could provide.

                        Comment


                        • Mod , I have neither the time nor the ability to sort out and edit certain posts, if you have complaints report them to me or another mod, otherwise, keep it to yourself, this is a thread about the slim possibility of the government getting sense, keep it that way.
                          "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
                          Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
                          Illegitimi non carborundum

                          Comment


                          • the FA-50 could certainly do a job of work - i have concerns about the range of small fighters compared to the potentially huge area they might be tasked to police, but we'll leave that aside - and i have no doubt that KAI and Korea would go to great lengths to ensure that Ireland had a 'good experience', if only as a sales showcase to the rest of Europe as well as winning friends while an increasingly agressive China prowls about on their doorstep.

                            that said, Gripen has an already established leasing arrangement which works smoothly in a number of European countries, and Sweden has a real, significant strategic interest in wider European defence.

                            i simply don't know how able KAI and Korea would be able to manage and sustain the 'start from nothing' lease/build-up/operate contract/partnership that Ireland would need. and thats worth baring in mind - Ireland, whoever it went with - would need a 'full spectrum' contract/partnership that no other country has needed: is there a single currently serving AC officer who has flown a single seat jet before? is there a single AC tech who has maintained/managed a guided weapon before?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                              We should not fall down the hole of "my aircraft is better than your aircraft", even if we are all guilt of that at times. For those that cannot avoid this may I recommend the following:

                              https://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Mili.../dp/B01931JR28

                              There are many items related to the provision of QRA that we have not discussed: how many planes will we need? will it be 24/7/365? What will be the pilot rotations? Will the aircraft be limited to QRA? What transformational effect would the introduction of such a capability have on the DF as a whole? Would the aircraft ever be deployed as an air component of a peacekeeping action?

                              We can still discuss equipment but not in "my plane, your plane".
                              Well, Czechia and Hungary are leasing Gripens for QRA and it is 12 C and 2 D. So that sounds like what is needed. And what point is there to QRA if it is not 24/7??? And as we discussed that we need more training, we may need a different mix of birds.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                                Well, Czechia and Hungary are leasing Gripens for QRA and it is 12 C and 2 D. So that sounds like what is needed. And what point is there to QRA if it is not 24/7??? And as we discussed that we need more training, we may need a different mix of birds.
                                Then why not farm out the advanced training to those who can spare the aircraft? Progress pilots from Wings course to fast jets using foreign partner (with clear skies) and suitable LIFT aircraft.
                                Taking on the cost of both LIFT and Interceptor aircraft, or getting LIFT to do Interceptor work is not a satisfactory outcome. The former near impossible to fund, the latter doomed to fail.
                                German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
                                German 2: Private? I am a general!
                                German 1: That is the bad news.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X