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  • Originally posted by CTU View Post
    I wonder if this is part of the reason why the not-so secret "secret deal" isn't officially acknowledged??


    No.
    Different times completely. You have to remember that was in the wake of the Arms Trial, and all that went with it.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

      No.
      Different times completely. You have to remember that was in the wake of the Arms Trial, and all that went with it.
      Is it really though. While most normal people don't care, certain politicians would try and twist and turn any agreement the government agrees to suit their own agenda, and we know how risk averse politicians are to making difficult decisions, so if this gentlemen's agreement was official govt-2-govt, why are they so shy about its existence and go down the non comital "neither confirm nor deny" attitude towards it when it seems everyone knows it exists.

      I find it amazing that any information out there on this Agreement is based on innuendo, while there are videos on the internet showing how the UK QRA and other NATO nations air policing systems works.
      It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
      It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
      It was a new age...It was the end of history.
      It was the year everything changed.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by CTU View Post

        Is it really though. While most normal people don't care, certain politicians would try and twist and turn any agreement the government agrees to suit their own agenda, and we know how risk averse politicians are to making difficult decisions, so if this gentlemen's agreement was official govt-2-govt, why are they so shy about its existence and go down the non comital "neither confirm nor deny" attitude towards it when it seems everyone knows it exists.

        I find it amazing that any information out there on this Agreement is based on innuendo, while there are videos on the internet showing how the UK QRA and other NATO nations air policing systems works.
        The history of the UK's WW11 establishment of an all UK Air Defence and Surveillance scheme has continued and provided the groundwork for today's scheme with designated 24/7 QRA units. Their Operations room screens show our island to the West and it is in Range of any required QRA intervention. We militarily have shown lack of interest and have shed all means of intervention. It is up to professionals to remedy perceived short comings. Pity in all branches that we have let so much slip and allowed teeth to be pulled.

        Comment


        • I spotted an interesting article in AFM today -

          Croatia choose Rafale as their next fighter

          Apparently, they had previously considered Israeli-sourced F-16’s
          IRISH AIR CORPS - Serving the Nation.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post

            The history of the UK's WW11 establishment of an all UK Air Defence and Surveillance scheme has continued and provided the groundwork for today's scheme with designated 24/7 QRA units. Their Operations room screens show our island to the West and it is in Range of any required QRA intervention. We militarily have shown lack of interest and have shed all means of intervention. It is up to professionals to remedy perceived short comings. Pity in all branches that we have let so much slip and allowed teeth to be pulled.
            Don't think it's a question of "allowed to be pulled", the DF answers to the Government of the day, said government has no interest in funding such capabilities, then they go away. And in terms of the AC, they never had teeth to be pulled in the first place given how outdated and limited their capabilities have always been in terms of air interception.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Silver View Post
              I spotted an interesting article in AFM today -

              Croatia choose Rafale as their next fighter

              Apparently, they had previously considered Israeli-sourced F-16’s
              From memory the US intervened, wanted Croatia to buy from them rather than the Israelis (as the US ultimately has the decision on any American hardware being sold on), Croatia instead got a good deal from the French who want to off load their older Rafales and replace them with new builds.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post

                Don't think it's a question of "allowed to be pulled", the DF answers to the Government of the day, said government has no interest in funding such capabilities, then they go away. And in terms of the AC, they never had teeth to be pulled in the first place given how outdated and limited their capabilities have always been in terms of air interception.
                Not since the introduction of the DH Vampires at least. Before then we were equipped with Seafires up to 1954. The Harrier T8 of it's day. Once we went with the DH Vampire, we gave up any interception ability. The RAF already considered the Vampire obsolete by 1953, which is probably why we got them.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

                  Not since the introduction of the DH Vampires at least. Before then we were equipped with Seafires up to 1954. The Harrier T8 of it's day. Once we went with the DH Vampire, we gave up any interception ability. The RAF already considered the Vampire obsolete by 1953, which is probably why we got them.
                  The Seafires were equally obsolete as the Hurricanes were before them (both out performed by the later war propellor airframes and then by the second gen jets that were starting their test campaigns to come into service later in the 50s, hell the Hawker Sea Fury was still in production in 1954 and far outperformed what is basically a pre WW2 design) that’s why the U.K. sold them on to us. Hell if the British didn’t have to return/destroy some much of the Lend Lease equipment I doubt the Seafire would have been in service for as long as it was, and hell we didn’t even get the Griffen engined variants.

                  Besides which given we never created any sort of air defence command it’s basically irrelevant as to what airplane we were flying, unless someone called ahead or someone in Baldonnel was out for a joyride they were never going to be able to control our airspace.
                  Last edited by Sparky42; 9 July 2021, 23:09.

                  Comment


                  • Just on the Seafires, can anyone explain to me what was the logic in us picking them? I mean of the list of post WW2 airframes that could have been picked up why did we pick a carrier modifed Pre WW2 design when there were so many others as options?

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                    • They were cheap and that was all that mattered when the Govt was slashing budgets. We could have got any aircraft,gun,tank,ship, weapon from a world awash with weapons after WW 2, practically for nothing,yet we got Seafires. Same with the Comets and the Churchills . Nice but not to be continued in service for decades.

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                      • https://www.dmilt.com/netherlands-mo...international/

                        The Dutch are selling off more of their F-16 A/B MLU's. This time to Draken.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                          They were cheap and that was all that mattered when the Govt was slashing budgets. We could have got any aircraft,gun,tank,ship, weapon from a world awash with weapons after WW 2, practically for nothing,yet we got Seafires. Same with the Comets and the Churchills . Nice but not to be continued in service for decades.
                          One could think that someone was trying to curtail the expansion of the Defence Forces Post-War. Even the new Naval Service managed to procure the least useful of the hundreds of surplus Convoy escorts that were available, and having asked for 6, got just 3.
                          With regards to the Seafire, they were still less obsolete in 1954 than the Vampires were.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                            Just on the Seafires, can anyone explain to me what was the logic in us picking them? I mean of the list of post WW2 airframes that could have been picked up why did we pick a carrier modifed Pre WW2 design when there were so many others as options?
                            The acquisition period for our frontline aircraft was 1943 when we got 11 Hurricanes to add to the one salvaged after a forced landing ,this was followed by the Seafires LF111 and later the Vampires. They were all contemporary to 1940-1950, the logical sequence with fighter squadrons is to replace and update, as it is with all items of defence. We all acquiesced in the ad hoc and fitting things to suit the choosers in the halls of power. Right now we cannot do ordinary things expected for 2021.

                            Comment


                            • Well,the Vampires had the hitting power of 20mm cannon and 25 pound rockets and by being two seaters,gave valuable experience of jet flight to a whole generation of Irish pilots. By the mid 60s,though, they were seriously outdated,even as trainers. Taking as long as 1977 to get Fougas was another joke.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post

                                The acquisition period for our frontline aircraft was 1943 when we got 11 Hurricanes to add to the one salvaged after a forced landing ,this was followed by the Seafires LF111 and later the Vampires. They were all contemporary to 1940-1950, the logical sequence with fighter squadrons is to replace and update, as it is with all items of defence. We all acquiesced in the ad hoc and fitting things to suit the choosers in the halls of power. Right now we cannot do ordinary things expected for 2021.
                                Even with that however the choice of Seafire makes no sense, why buy an modified design for Carriers with features such as the folding wings for us? You want Spitfires, fine the RAF were giving them away (though I would have suggested looking at US airframes), moreover I'd have to disagree with the suggestion that they were still contemporary aircraft. They were still in use for the UK due in no small part wartime needs, The ones that continued in service in the RAF were the Griffon engined airframes, more powerful than the Merlin powered Seafires (hell the RN used the Griffon ones as well).

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