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  • Graylion
    replied
    Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    you'd probably have more effect on the Russians if you went down to the IFSC and had a poke around a few bank accounts.....air defence (anti-aircraft guns,etc) has always been the jealous preserve of the Army, right back to WW2 and the Air Corps must be the only air arm in the world that has never permanently based defensive weapons at it's own air bases. The Army always had the Bofors and a few machine guns, the NS always had the Bofors and 20mms on it's ships, yet the third arm has never had the means to defend it's own bases or deployable persons/aircraft/vehicles, as it's won establishment asset. They have always had to go, cap in hand, to the Army to do that job. It is beyond ironic that the Air Corps museum was given two Bofors when the Army retired them, having never operated them at all in it's entire history. WW 2 proved beyond all doubt that an air arm has to have the means to defend it's bases and it's deployed assets. That's why the RAF created the RAF Regiment, because they found out the hard way that they couldn't depend on the Army to operate national and local level radar and defend their bases. Irish soldiers have gone abroad for years with no air defence worth the name. I'll bet if the Jadotville boys had had a Bofors on hand, it might have put manners on that Fouga! How many times have the Irish encountered militias with Zsu-23s or 14.5s or 12.7s on the back of pickups, yet they seem unable to bring the same with them when they go on tour? Next time the Navy cast off their 20mms, stick it on a DROPs pallet or a flatbed, paint it green and the Army can play with it.
    If we postulate the civilian radars, my thinking is that we'd still want some military personnel - possibly reservists - in the IAA control centres keeping an eye on things. It does not strike me as sensible for them to be arty types.

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  • GoneToTheCanner
    replied
    you'd probably have more effect on the Russians if you went down to the IFSC and had a poke around a few bank accounts.....air defence (anti-aircraft guns,etc) has always been the jealous preserve of the Army, right back to WW2 and the Air Corps must be the only air arm in the world that has never permanently based defensive weapons at it's own air bases. The Army always had the Bofors and a few machine guns, the NS always had the Bofors and 20mms on it's ships, yet the third arm has never had the means to defend it's own bases or deployable persons/aircraft/vehicles, as it's won establishment asset. They have always had to go, cap in hand, to the Army to do that job. It is beyond ironic that the Air Corps museum was given two Bofors when the Army retired them, having never operated them at all in it's entire history. WW 2 proved beyond all doubt that an air arm has to have the means to defend it's bases and it's deployed assets. That's why the RAF created the RAF Regiment, because they found out the hard way that they couldn't depend on the Army to operate national and local level radar and defend their bases. Irish soldiers have gone abroad for years with no air defence worth the name. I'll bet if the Jadotville boys had had a Bofors on hand, it might have put manners on that Fouga! How many times have the Irish encountered militias with Zsu-23s or 14.5s or 12.7s on the back of pickups, yet they seem unable to bring the same with them when they go on tour? Next time the Navy cast off their 20mms, stick it on a DROPs pallet or a flatbed, paint it green and the Army can play with it.

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  • pym
    replied
    Originally posted by danno View Post
    Maybe it happens frequently but it would be high stakes for any given State to jam civvy radar for posturing purposes regardless of to whom the picture was being repeated to.
    Absolutely.

    Originally posted by danno View Post
    If the intruding bear was such a big deal then why was there no diplomatic response etc .
    Following the first publicised incursion two weeks previously, the Department of Foreign Affairs signalled its officials had spoken to the Russian ambassador and sought reassurances that its military aircraft would not fly into our area of control without advance notification, especially if their transponders were off.
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...rs-315623.html

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  • danno
    replied
    A good start for the AC to get in on the AD act here would be to assign AD from Arty to AC. It pretty futile to postulate AC getting such and such sensor suite and such and such interceptor while it has no formal role in the matter. Does the WP alter this aspect?

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  • DeV
    replied
    AC is 18% below establishment for the aircraft it does have
    http://flyinginireland.com/2016/07/n...reed-strength/

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  • danno
    replied
    Originally posted by pym View Post
    I .............t probably(?) would be cheaper to have civilian spec, civilian operated, long range primary radar with the picture shared in Bal. But those systems wont be equipped for ECCM and other modes.
    Maybe it happens frequently but it would be high stakes for any given State to jam civvy radar for posturing purposes regardless of to whom the picture was being repeated to.
    If the intruding bear was such a big deal then why was there no diplomatic response etc .

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  • pym
    replied
    Originally posted by DeV View Post
    so say at 1000 hrs tomorrow the RAF/NATS tells the IAA there is a Bear with no transponder on flying in Irish controlled airspace off the West coast. I

    How long will it take one of these mobile radars to get from Athlone or Dublin to Donegal?

    When it arrives there it still can't detect it as it doesn't have the range.

    Even if it could can it be linked into the IAA radar picture
    You're after completely missing the point of what I said - I said if long range civilian primary radars are to be operated by the IAA, I would still want the DF to have an enhanced capability of their own.

    Properly located civilian long range primary radar will have no problems detecting Bears or other military/civilian aircraft with disabled transponders.

    Provided they're not actively jamming and/or Stealth.

    Cost.
    Last edited by pym; 1 August 2016, 16:36.

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  • DeV
    replied
    so say at 1000 hrs tomorrow the RAF/NATS tells the IAA there is a Bear with no transponder on flying in Irish controlled airspace off the West coast.

    How long will it take one of these mobile radars to get from Athlone or Dublin to Donegal?

    When it arrives there it still can't detect it as it doesn't have the range.

    Even if it could can it be linked into the IAA radar picture
    Last edited by DeV; 1 August 2016, 15:17.

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  • pym
    replied
    I originally mooted the idea of additional IAA controlled Primary RRH's, basically to cut expenses for the DoD/DF - but I think Jetjock raised some good counter points to that idea in the other thread.

    It probably(?) would be cheaper to have civilian spec, civilian operated, long range primary radar with the picture shared in Bal. But those systems wont be equipped for ECCM and other modes.

    If that's the road the State went down, then ideally I'd like to the DF being equipped in its own right with a couple of Thales GM200 or Giraffe 4A medium range systems - very deployable, ECCM, counter battery/C-RAM capabilities and can integrate into modern AD networks.

    I don't think there's any chance of IAC fastjets in the next 20 years, but that's no reason to remain in ignorance of activity in our airspace.

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  • Sparky42
    replied
    Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
    The "funny" part is those who are up in arms in the dail about various perceived military air (and sea) incursions, are the very same ones who would object loudest should a single cent be spent on anything to prevent or deter such incursions.
    Well those double standards aren't exactly new are they...

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  • na grohmiti
    replied
    The "funny" part is those who are up in arms in the dail about various perceived military air (and sea) incursions, are the very same ones who would object loudest should a single cent be spent on anything to prevent or deter such incursions.

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  • expat01
    replied
    I'm not so sure it's fantasy anymore. The sense I got from answers to Dail questions suggested to me that the minister knows it's a gap but that it's a serious budget increase and it ain't happening in a hurry. It's a more nuanced position than "can't buy them and sure what would we be needing that for anyway?"

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  • TangoSierra
    replied
    Some great fantasy going on here!

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  • zone 1
    replied
    so we get radar then what call UK and say come over have look for us theres something in our airspace..

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  • expat01
    replied
    Originally posted by zone 1 View Post
    what is the point in having the radar if you cant go up and have look.
    We're hoping the politicos cone to the same conclusion once the radar is running!

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