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  • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
    I had a look at the Czechia Gripen leasing deal. 1 G$ over 10 years. Cound in inflation and we might pay 1.1 G€. I also has a think/look at where to stick them. They would mostly be needed for intercepting Russian a/c comnig in from going around Scotland, so I'd put some in Carrickfinn (CFN // EIDL), Donegal airport maybe? Or would they be better off at the Don, but it is a bit of a hike to Donegal from there. Where would we get other (accidental) unauthorised incursions?
    I'm sorry, you are coming at this as if nobody has ever discussed it before.
    What is G$? We speak in one currency here, and its €
    It's not just russians. (do some research, there are plenty of recent documents written by experts detailing the whys and wherefores)
    Carrick****ingfinn at 1150m is about as useful in this regard as a straight stretch of motorway (the type of deployment the Gripen is designed for). Not to mention being at the arse end of Donegal, already at the arse end of the country. You need to get all your logs train into Daniel O'Donnells back garden! Because of the lie of the land at Carrick****ingfinn (Its official title) you wo't be able to extend the runway to allow freight aircraft deliver things like new engines or other large parts, so instead they must go by road. Aero engineers will tell long tales about bringing aero engines by road.
    Most important though is that it sits on the edge of irish airspace and irish controlled airspace. By putting then there you remove their ability to respond to aircraft coming from Cuba and zipping up the English channel, which the russians also do. Not to mention activity at Porcupine Bight.

    On a related note, the Czechs have said they have made no decision about going down the F35 route, as was suggested in recent weeks.
    For now, everything hangs on the CoDF report, still possibly 2 weeks from the Ministers desk.

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    • Here is a hotspot map from the IAA on Dublin airspace infringements

      https://www.iaa.ie/docs/default-sour...rsn=968e05f3_0

      we ignore the threat of terror attack at our peril

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      • G = giga = 10^9 aka 1 billion

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        • Originally posted by DeV View Post
          Here is a hotspot map from the IAA on Dublin airspace infringements

          https://www.iaa.ie/docs/default-sour...rsn=968e05f3_0

          we ignore the threat of terror attack at our peril
          Given that we don't have radar coverage of the rest of the country, we don't really know, do we?

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          • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
            G = giga = 10^9 aka 1 billion
            In your world perhaps. Accepted norm this part of EU is bn or m.
            For now, everything hangs on the CoDF report, still possibly 2 weeks from the Ministers desk.

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            • Looking at the Leonardo CODF submission (shamelessly plugging for business) they recommend the RAT-31DL

              https://www.leonardocompany.com/en/products/rat-31dl

              good number of users (including NATO), there is a mobile version (2x20ft). Cost is about €25m each (at 2007 prices)

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              • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                Here is a hotspot map from the IAA on Dublin airspace infringements

                https://www.iaa.ie/docs/default-sour...rsn=968e05f3_0

                we ignore the threat of terror attack at our peril
                A lot of these infringements are local lads bumping up into the bottom of Dublin's Control Zone. there are at least a dozen small airfields North of Dublin,out where the base of controlled airspace is 2500 feet and it's easy to bump up to 2600 feet and trigger an alarm. They are not Tu-95s lurking around the edges of the Zone. Even commercial pilots make mistakes and occasionally bust a height or a compass heading and the system picks up deviations very quickly.

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                • Originally posted by Graylion View Post

                  Given that we don't have radar coverage of the rest of the country, we don't really know, do we?
                  Wrong. Ireland's radar coverage is very, very good. I've seen it in action and the only real limitation for accuracy on this island is places like the Wicklow Mountains. Modern computers can filter out a lot of scatter and false reflections but sometimes, an aircraft flying up a valley can be obscured. It's better than you think. It was good even before the likes of FR 24 and Mode S. It's radio coverage that is poor as it is often possible to talk to Shannon at low level and not be heard. They can see you but not hear you and vice versa.

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                  • Originally posted by Graylion View Post

                    Both Sweden and Finland are considered neutral. In the Cold War, Sweden was as close to NATO as is possible without being a member, mostly as an unspoken understanding to avoid Finland being swallowed by the WP. The Irish understanding of neutrality strikes me as utterly bizarre and very Puritan.
                    That's because the Finns and Swedes regard Russia as a full time, real time threat. From WW 2 on, they would have experience in dealing with Russia and it got very pointy in the Cold War, which is why they always act as if Helsinki and Stockholm could be incinerated tomorrow. Considering how much cooperation we have had over the decades with both countries,you'd think we'd pay attention when Tu-95s started mooching around.

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                    • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post

                      Wrong. Ireland's radar coverage is very, very good. I've seen it in action and the only real limitation for accuracy on this island is places like the Wicklow Mountains. Modern computers can filter out a lot of scatter and false reflections but sometimes, an aircraft flying up a valley can be obscured. It's better than you think. It was good even before the likes of FR 24 and Mode S. It's radio coverage that is poor as it is often possible to talk to Shannon at low level and not be heard. They can see you but not hear you and vice versa.
                      Oh and would that be in primary or secondary radar? For our purposes secondary is irrelevant.

                      There was a map going around here that showed our primary radar to be less than pitiful.

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                      • Originally posted by Graylion View Post

                        Oh and would that be in primary or secondary radar? For our purposes secondary is irrelevant.

                        There was a map going around here that showed our primary radar to be less than pitiful.
                        Post 1358

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                        • Originally posted by DeV View Post

                          Post 1358
                          For the record, in all my personal experience as an aircraft engineer and a pilot in Ireland and abroad,I have to assure you that our radar, even back in the days of black and white screens and now with modern digitised/electronic screens,our radar coverage is excellent. Even back in the Stone Age of the 80s/90s,a radar controller was well able to tell the difference between birds and a false return. I have flown in a lot of the small airfields in Ireland, in many places, in microlights and Group A aircraft and I was ALWAYS under radar surveillance. Only rarely was I ever in a situation where Shannon or Dublin could not pinpoint me and I was operating out of very small airstrips in mountainous areas. I was able to call Shannon from 500 feet , from a Wicklow airstrip and get a response. I have seen this as a pilot and as a visitor to the radar centres. Understand this; it suits some people with agendas to imply that our radar coverage is inadequate. Maybe we can't reach out and view Rockall, but rest assured, we have a great deal of accurate real time coverage, quite simply.because we have to. Our economic dependence on safe transatlantic air travel means that we have always had a focus on having a very good eye on the Atlantic. We have good coverage,plain and simple.

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                          • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post

                            For the record, in all my personal experience as an aircraft engineer and a pilot in Ireland and abroad,I have to assure you that our radar, even back in the days of black and white screens and now with modern digitised/electronic screens,our radar coverage is excellent. Even back in the Stone Age of the 80s/90s,a radar controller was well able to tell the difference between birds and a false return. I have flown in a lot of the small airfields in Ireland, in many places, in microlights and Group A aircraft and I was ALWAYS under radar surveillance. Only rarely was I ever in a situation where Shannon or Dublin could not pinpoint me and I was operating out of very small airstrips in mountainous areas. I was able to call Shannon from 500 feet , from a Wicklow airstrip and get a response. I have seen this as a pilot and as a visitor to the radar centres. Understand this; it suits some people with agendas to imply that our radar coverage is inadequate. Maybe we can't reach out and view Rockall, but rest assured, we have a great deal of accurate real time coverage, quite simply.because we have to. Our economic dependence on safe transatlantic air travel means that we have always had a focus on having a very good eye on the Atlantic. We have good coverage,plain and simple.
                            We have good PCR coverage over much of the island but not all.

                            we have excellent SSR coverage of the complete Irish FIR and beyond

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                            • Would having a military primary radar actually change anything? The Russian are not so stupid as to actually enter our sovereign airspace, they are a problem for our control zone but that is all. Radar is just one element of a air defence system and just having one part does not add so much. Having a long range radar that identifies targets is useless unless it can be intercepted.

                              Now I know some will now say but we have an agreement with the UK; they will provide Eurofighters cover if we need that capability once. But the UK is divesting from Eurofighter, they will not replace their Tranche 1 aircraft and even the F35 buy is being reduced. So the RAF will be hard pressed to meet their primary missions without providing cover for us. And they are not alone, the reason why Rafales are available is that the too are being phased out. Although in the case of France they are buying replacements to keep the numbers.

                              It is now more than 20 years since 9/11 and as the saying goes a day in politics is long and much can change. Politicians have extremely short memories and as nothing like that has happened again they feel secure in not having to have a proper air defence system in this country. And to put even a proper radar and control system in-place would cost several €100m's I do not see the benefit without the other elements. If such capital was available there are many other priorities that would better serve the defence of the nation.

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                              • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                                Would having a military primary radar actually change anything? The Russian are not so stupid as to actually enter our sovereign airspace, they are a problem for our control zone but that is all. Radar is just one element of a air defence system and just having one part does not add so much. Having a long range radar that identifies targets is useless unless it can be intercepted.

                                Now I know some will now say but we have an agreement with the UK; they will provide Eurofighters cover if we need that capability once. But the UK is divesting from Eurofighter, they will not replace their Tranche 1 aircraft and even the F35 buy is being reduced. So the RAF will be hard pressed to meet their primary missions without providing cover for us. And they are not alone, the reason why Rafales are available is that the too are being phased out. Although in the case of France they are buying replacements to keep the numbers.

                                It is now more than 20 years since 9/11 and as the saying goes a day in politics is long and much can change. Politicians have extremely short memories and as nothing like that has happened again they feel secure in not having to have a proper air defence system in this country. And to put even a proper radar and control system in-place would cost several €100m's I do not see the benefit without the other elements. If such capital was available there are many other priorities that would better serve the defence of the nation.
                                A number of inaccurate presumptions there.
                                The russian presence in sovereign airspace is not the issue, it's their passage, and operation in Irish controlled international airspace where the problems lie. Them flying through without transponder activated is a danger to all other aircraft in transit from the US and Canada.
                                Our agreement with the UK is unseen but reports of RAF following Russian Aircraft have revealed one thing. The RAF may transit (briefly) through sovereign airspace (usually up north) but once the russian enters Irish controlled airspace the RAF head for home, sometimes leaving interception south of irish airspace to the French AF/Navy or other RAF QRA. The Large chunk of Irish airspace that stretches 200 miles to the west is never entered by the RAF. Once the russians are in there, they can be monitored by RAF AWACS flying over Scotland. If the russians turn back, QRA is back up.
                                Having a military presence at Irish ATC in Ballycasey or wherever would give controllers a direct point of contact should military decision making be required, whether it was to alert the RAF, or even to make a call on radio on behalf of the Irish government making a demand to an aircraft. Obviously ATC already make demands of aircraft and are covered by international regulations, but having a military presence adds another diplomatic level to that demand. Adding primary radar looking west into that 200 mile chunk also helps to show what isn't squalking.
                                For now, everything hangs on the CoDF report, still possibly 2 weeks from the Ministers desk.

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