Defending the Irish airspace

[na grohmiti]

Worth mentioning at this point there was a relatively recent hijacking case in Europe. It was flown up the med, Heading for Geneva. Escorted by the various air forces along the way, until Greeks passed it to Italians. Italians escorted it over.their country as it continued for the Swiss border. Swiss couldn't be contacted though, their F/A-18s only working office hours with no QRA outside that time. Luckily hijacked aircraft landed safely in Geneva where hijacker surrendered.
After that the Swiss QRA went 24 hr for the first time in its history.
As for primary radar, there is plenty of room for extra antennae on Mt Gabriel and vehicle access is much better than you would expect for the top of a mountain. Indeed you could stick a surface radar there too and get a petty good view of the nasty boats bringing drugs from North Africa, if you wanted.

[madmark]

How many times a year do the Russians fly through Irish Controlled Airspace

that's the question no one in Ireland can answer until we have a primary radar capability, we cant intercept what we cant see. this is were we should start.

[apc]

Surely the current civilian radar can pick them up, it just cant identify them as the have their transponders switched off.
Could military radar identify them as bears etc or just as aircraft

[CTU]

Surely the current civilian radar can pick them up, it just cant identify them as the have their transponders switched off.
Could military radar identify them as bears etc or just as aircraft

No the current long range Radar is Secondary only, (needs the Transponder on to Detect and Identify). The Primary Heads are only at the airports.

http://iaip.iaa.ie/iaip/Published%20Files/AIP%20Files/ENR/EI_ENR_1_6_EN.pdf

[DeV]

No the current long range Radar is Secondary only, (needs the Transponder on to Detect and Identify). The Primary Heads are only at the airports.

http://iaip.iaa.ie/iaip/Published%20Files/AIP%20Files/ENR/EI_ENR_1_6_EN.pdf

Correct and right

apc
Any aircraft in the Shannon FIR (both Irish territorial and Irish controlled airspace can be detected and identified by the IAA if they have their responder on (see 2.5 in CTU’s attachment).

if their responder is off, coverage is limited to 1.5 in the attachment. Zero coverage of Donegal, Sligo, north Mayo, south west of Waterford or practically anywhere west/north/southwest of Irish controlled airspace

[apc]

No the current long range Radar is Secondary only, (needs the Transponder on to Detect and Identify). The Primary Heads are only at the airports.

http://iaip.iaa.ie/iaip/Published%20Files/AIP%20Files/ENR/EI_ENR_1_6_EN.pdf

Did not know that, every days a school day. So unless the Air Corps get military (primary) radar the acquisition of aircraft for policing is moot

[Sparky42]

Did not know that, every days a school day. So unless the Air Corps get military (primary) radar the acquisition of aircraft for policing is moot

Yep, which is why even the white paper had the comment about Primary Radar first and then maybe some stage in the future planes.

[Silver]

Very interesting debate with some great information and opinions!

I would agree with having Primary Radar in place before starting the procurement of jets

Very good suggestion above about the option to install Surface Radar at Mt Gabriel!

A few questions about both the M346 and FA-50:

Do they have on-board Radar?
What range do they possess (e.g. capable of escorting a Bear for how long)?
How limited is their range when weapons are fitted?

[DeV]

Very interesting debate with some great information and opinions!

I would agree with having Primary Radar in place before starting the procurement of jets

Very good suggestion above about the option to install Surface Radar at Mt Gabriel!

A few questions about both the M346 and FA-50:

Do they have on-board Radar?
What range do they possess (e.g. capable of escorting a Bear for how long)?
How limited is their range when weapons are fitted?

So long as it doesn’t interfere with the MSSRs

I’d argue that it would be cheaper and more cost effective for Government to direct IAA (could be difficulty there as they are a semi-State company) to purchase 2-3 medium to long range civilian high spec radars feed all the radar data into a RAP. Alternatively it could be a joint purchase.

M346FA has onboard multimodal radar. Doubt if even operated from Donegal/Sligo/Knock/Shannon/Kerry it would have the range to intercept Bears in a meaningful way.

https://www.leonardocompany.com/documents/20142/3150746/Aermacchi+M-346_brochure_ENG_new.pdf?t=1602499684962

Page 8

[CTU]

So long as it doesn’t interfere with the MSSRs

I’d argue that it would be cheaper and more cost effective for Government to direct IAA (could be difficulty there as they are a semi-State company) to purchase 2-3 medium to long range civilian high spec radars feed all the radar data into a RAP. Alternatively it could be a joint purchase.

M346FA has onboard multimodal radar. Doubt if even operated from Donegal/Sligo/Knock/Shannon/Kerry it would have the range to intercept Bears in a meaningful way.

https://www.leonardocompany.com/documents/20142/3150746/Aermacchi+M-346_brochure_ENG_new.pdf?t=1602499684962

Page 8

The M346FA brochure "claims" a 150 NM range (with 2x Missile and Gun Pod) with 2hrs Loitering at 100 NM for Air Policing, I am assuming that is without droptanks or A2A refueling.

https://www.leonardocompany.com/documents/20142/3151814/Aermacchi+M-346FA_brochure_ENG_new.pdf?t=1602513205999

[Jaque'ammer]

What kind of endurance would be required for us to tail a Bear from Donegal to Cork?

[na grohmiti]

What kind of endurance would be required for us to tail a Bear from Donegal to Cork?

Staying close to the coast and not venturing too far into the west you'd still need a minimum 800 mile range assuming you are based in Shannon. 900 miles if you want to stay in Casement.
Working to the edge of Irish Controlled airspace, from Casement necessitates a range closer to 1200 miles.
In short you won't get that without drop tanks and/or in-flight refuelling.
A possible solution lies with Saab (no shock there) who's AEWACS aircraft acts the same as an interceptor while in the air. It has much longer legs and can loiter for hours longer, keeping electronic tags on your visitor, while your more expensive by the hour fighter waits on the ground if necessary.
It also solves the Primary radar problem.
One AEWACS at cruising altitude has a much better electronic view of the sky than 2 or 3 ground radar stations perched on top of a hill.
Not a cheap option though.

https://www.saab.com/

[Sparky42]

Not cheap at all, though in fairness given our current state, there are no cheap options if we ever decide to do anything.

[DeV]

Staying close to the coast and not venturing too far into the west you'd still need a minimum 800 mile range assuming you are based in Shannon. 900 miles if you want to stay in Casement.
Working to the edge of Irish Controlled airspace, from Casement necessitates a range closer to 1200 miles.
In short you won't get that without drop tanks and/or in-flight refuelling.
A possible solution lies with Saab (no shock there) who's AEWACS aircraft acts the same as an interceptor while in the air. It has much longer legs and can loiter for hours longer, keeping electronic tags on your visitor, while your more expensive by the hour fighter waits on the ground if necessary.
It also solves the Primary radar problem.
One AEWACS at cruising altitude has a much better electronic view of the sky than 2 or 3 ground radar stations perched on top of a hill.
Not a cheap option though.

https://www.saab.com/

You’d need 1 airborne 24/7/365

[na grohmiti]

You’d need 1 airborne 24/7/365

Not really. You just need to keep an eye on the UK or French QRA.