Defending the Irish airspace

[na grohmiti]

If it generated discussion, then he has achieved his objective. Did we take back the treaty ports or are we still at a free state security level, militarily?

[DeV]

I imagine he will be brought into a room with the Taoiseach and the the CoS and will be given a limited amount of information and then be told to mind his own business/shut his gob, in the national interest and be thankful that our neighbours have a decent air arm in the absence of one here and that whatever SECRET arrangement exists, will continue to exist.

Except that isn’t the argument:

“I looked at the constitutionality of it. And it’s clearly set out in the Constitution who can can and who can’t establish a defence of the nation,” he said.

This refers to a number of sections of the constitution including Article Five with regard to the sovereignty of the Irish State and Article 29.5.1 which states that any international agreement must come before the Dáil for ratification.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Citing constitutionality is all very well until the shit hits the fan and you require a fighter response in real time (or some other kind of response). Craughwell knows this perfectly well and is determined to track this down, also knowing full well that he is on a hiding to nothing. Regardless of trotting stuff out in front of the Dail, there comes a point where the State has to make a decision for grown ups and either buy a fighter arm and be prepared to use it or ask the neighbours to step up. The easy option is to ask the RAF to nip out past Rockall and eyeball the Russians. Failing that, it's time to go cap in hand to the Swedes for a deal on Gripens. If the State says in the Dail that it has a deal with the Brits, the Shinners will throw a shoe, as expected and Craughwell will leap onto his high horse and a few of the usual suspects will join in. There's no winners; either they buy fighters or they do a deal with the Brits.

[na grohmiti]

Citing constitutionality is all very well until the shit hits the fan and you require a fighter response in real time (or some other kind of response). Craughwell knows this perfectly well and is determined to track this down, also knowing full well that he is on a hiding to nothing. Regardless of trotting stuff out in front of the Dail, there comes a point where the State has to make a decision for grown ups and either buy a fighter arm and be prepared to use it or ask the neighbours to step up. The easy option is to ask the RAF to nip out past Rockall and eyeball the Russians. Failing that, it's time to go cap in hand to the Swedes for a deal on Gripens. If the State says in the Dail that it has a deal with the Brits, the Shinners will throw a shoe, as expected and Craughwell will leap onto his high horse and a few of the usual suspects will join in. There's no winners; either they buy fighters or they do a deal with the Brits.

Thats all well and good for the cheaper option but what about when someone actually has to make a decision? What's the chain of Command? We know the RAF can get shootdown permission in UK airspace from No 10. Who gives it here?

[GoneToTheCanner]

If push comes to shove, either the CoS or the Taoiseach and then stand back and watch the furious "he said , she said" thereafter. If a scenario arose that Irish citizens were under a direct threat to their lives from air or sea and the only available firepower was under the wing of a Typhoon, then one of the grown-ups would have to (a) give the order to fire (b) take the political consequences afterwards (c) absolve the pilot of all responsibility. The CoS has the default that he or she is not the top of the food chain and must do as they are bid. The historical record is that the State can and will take the shot if it has to; Dev and the IRA in WW 2; the State versus the gangs after Veronica Guerin's death; Dessie O'Hare. I think, that if things really went to the wire, the RAF would be asked to shoot on our behalf, if all other methods had failed. The Taoiseach who ever has to give that kind of order would immediately be at the eye of a media shitstorm and it would take a fairly tough character to deal with it. Apart from all that, it wouldnt surprise me in the slightest if such a scenario has been wargamed.

[EUFighter]

I imagine he will be brought into a room with the Taoiseach and the the CoS and will be given a limited amount of information and then be told to mind his own business/shut his gob, in the national interest and be thankful that our neighbours have a decent air arm in the absence of one here and that whatever SECRET arrangement exists, will continue to exist.

Doubt the CoS will get an invite, more like Secretary General of the DoD.

[na grohmiti]

What makes you so sure?

[TangoSierra]

If push comes to shove, either the CoS or the Taoiseach and then stand back and watch the furious "he said , she said" thereafter. If a scenario arose that Irish citizens were under a direct threat to their lives from air or sea and the only available firepower was under the wing of a Typhoon, then one of the grown-ups would have to (a) give the order to fire (b) take the political consequences afterwards (c) absolve the pilot of all responsibility. The CoS has the default that he or she is not the top of the food chain and must do as they are bid. The historical record is that the State can and will take the shot if it has to; Dev and the IRA in WW 2; the State versus the gangs after Veronica Guerin's death; Dessie O'Hare. I think, that if things really went to the wire, the RAF would be asked to shoot on our behalf, if all other methods had failed. The Taoiseach who ever has to give that kind of order would immediately be at the eye of a media shitstorm and it would take a fairly tough character to deal with it. Apart from all that, it wouldnt surprise me in the slightest if such a scenario has been wargamed.

If the RAF were doing the trigger pulling, then the Irish Government wouldn't get a say in the matter. The British government would make the call.

[GoneToTheCanner]

They would if the target was in our airspace/waters/over our landmass. They'd have to talk to us first and vice versa. That's why the armed forces of either country can't go casually firing when it suits them, in case it conflicts with the other. We also, both as a State and as sovereign armed forces, enjoy good working relationships with each other. As an example, there have been at least two occasions when abandoned RAF aircraft either crossed Ireland or nearly did so. The Harrier crossed Ireland and the other aircraft, a Lightning, crashed into the Irish Sea. In both cases, anxious eyes watched to see what the aircraft would do and the telling point is that we could do nothing and depended on the RAF. Imagine the furore if the RAF had shot down the Harrier, as it crossed Ireland, to prevent it falling into a populated area. Imagine the reaction from Craughwell and the Shinners. The bottom line is that, in the absence of our own air defence, we have to rely on others.

[TangoSierra]

They would if the target was in our airspace/waters/over our landmass. They'd have to talk to us first and vice versa. That's why the armed forces of either country can't go casually firing when it suits them, in case it conflicts with the other. We also, both as a State and as sovereign armed forces, enjoy good working relationships with each other. As an example, there have been at least two occasions when abandoned RAF aircraft either crossed Ireland or nearly did so. The Harrier crossed Ireland and the other aircraft, a Lightning, crashed into the Irish Sea. In both cases, anxious eyes watched to see what the aircraft would do and the telling point is that we could do nothing and depended on the RAF. Imagine the furore if the RAF had shot down the Harrier, as it crossed Ireland, to prevent it falling into a populated area. Imagine the reaction from Craughwell and the Shinners. The bottom line is that, in the absence of our own air defence, we have to rely on others.

If that target was over airspace, the Irish Govt still wouldn't have a say in the matter. They would most likely be told after the event.
If Ireland cant detect (no radar) or respond (Intercept) then how would they know it even happened.

An interesting aside, along with handing over defacto air policing and monitoring to the RAF, the Irish State has given legal status to the UK Hydrographic Office (under the Royal Navy), to define Irelands Territorial Airspace and Waters.

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2021/act/28/enacted/en/print.html

Evidence as to extent of internal waters, territorial sea, exclusive economic zone and continental shelf
		21. (1) United Kingdom Hydrographic Office charts may be used for the purposes of establishing—
		(a) the low-water mark,
		(b) the existence and position of any low-tide elevation, or
		(c) any other feature relevant to the delineation of the territorial sea, the contiguous zone, the exclusive economic zone or the continental shelf.
		(2) The Government may by order prescribe charts other than United Kingdom Hydrographic Office charts for the purposes referred to in subsection (1) and any chart so prescribed shall be received in evidence as if it were a chart referred to in that subsection.
		(3) Any chart purporting to be a copy of a United Kingdom Hydrographic Office chart shall, unless the contrary is proved, be received in evidence as being such a chart without further proof.
		(4) In this section “United Kingdom Hydrographic Office” means the hydrographic office that is part of the United Kingdom Ministry of Defence and “United Kingdom Hydrographic Office charts” shall be construed accordingly.

[paul g]

Does anybody remember the mig 23 crash in Belgium in 1989. What happened was that a mig 23 on a training exercise over the Baltic had difficulties and the pilot ejected thinking it would crash but instead it flew on unpiloted towards the border.
It flew over the west German border and got picked up by radar stations and two USAF f15 were scrambled to intercept and after observing that it was unmanned and had no nuclear weapons they opted to follow it. It flew over west Germany the Netherlands and Belgium, and NATO had just informed the French, who at the time were outside of NATO’s command structures, when it ran out of fuel and crashed onto a farm house killing some unfortunate teenage student.

A couple of points to make
Firstly at the height of the cold war even though the plane flew over three countries airspaces all of whom had large fleets of F16s it was only the usaf planes that intercepted. That’s because since the 1950s air defence has been a pooled resource amongst NATO members, that is centrally controlled from Torrejon, in Spain. If in the coming years we are going to develop an airspace Surveillance wing similar to the one the Baltic state have, an essential question we have to ask is what relationship its going to have with Torrejon
Secondly the reason they didn’t shoot down the mig even though they could see it was unmanned was because the damage it would cause on the ground, they were hoping it would fly over the north sea so they could do it there. its simply unthinkable in the real world that an Irish Taoiseach would be placed in that position outside of a novel, 9/11 is never going to happen again because airport security is so different.
Thirdly air to air combat is very rare, the RAF haven’t shot down a plane since the 1940’s and its something that the USAF do essentially once every twenty years. Air forces are there in the 21^st century to drop precision guided munitions on the bad guys. If we are looking at a fighter squadron essentially we are looking at having that capability. Now if you look at Un peace keeping as it is rather than the rose tinted view that PANA/ed \horgan etc have, they have a requirement for a light strike for their missions.
https://pcrs.un.org/Lists/Resources/...021.04%20UNMUM
Again going back to the 1980’s in 1987 flight international did a review of the air corps and in discussing the fouga and its weapons made the point that the possibility that a skirmish would take place within the territory of the state that might require air support was a possibility that could not be ruled out. The possibility of an assault on our sovereignty by a small commando size force and the need to provide close air support to friendly units in contact with that force is a viable senario. Having the capability to provide close air support for Un missions overseas is a priority even when it comes to training troops at home for robust peace support missions overseas. If they’re going to develop a fighter capability it would make more sense to do it for that.

Finally that Belgian kid was so unfortunate as this sort of thing is so rare, but as some have pointed out an RAF harrier did the same so it does happen. But things like this are best sorted out through cooperation amongst european democracies and again we let the extreme left/ hard republicans/Catholics dominate the neutrality debate without pointing out that NATO has kept the peace in Europe since 1948

[na grohmiti]

Putting this here purely for reference and comparative purposes. When I find similar for the FA50, I'll put that here too.
Aermacchi+M-346FA_brochure_ENG_new.pdf (leonardo.com)

[Tempest]

Radar plans being fleshed out:

jrnl://article/5881009?source=fbal&target_url=http%3A%2F%2Fjrnl.i e%2F5881009f

[Graylion]

that link seemsto be missing something, but I saw the article in The Journal. Lockheed strikes me as a weird source.I agree with L-Band, but I'D go withe the land based version of SMART-L https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/world...st-air-picture

[na grohmiti]

Another bargain missed.
Romania to buy 32 ex RNoAF F16A/Bs. €12m per airframe plus maint & training. Granted its a NATO to NATO transfer, but it shows what is possible.
This will add to Romania's ex Portuguese AF F-16s, and remove the Mig21 from Romanian service. Wonder where they will end up?
Worth noting that the unit cost per ex Portuguese F16 was €50m each.

Norway signs F-16-contract with Romania


News story | Date: 04/11/2022

The Norwegian Defence Materiel Agency (NDMA) has signed a contract with Romania for the sale of 32 Norwegian F-16 aircraft.
Norwegian F-16 Credit: The Armed Forces of Norway
Following the RFI answer received in 2020, Romania has since 2021 expressed interest in acquiring the former Norwegian Air Force aircraft as part of an effort to strengthen the capabilities of the Romanian Air Force. The final agreement was signed 4. November following months of negotiations and includes 32 aircraft along with spare parts and support equipment, as well as maintenance and technical training services.

«The agreement signed by the NDMA will help strengthen the air power of one of our allies, at the same time as it will generate revenues for both Norwegian industry and the Norwegian state,” said Norwegian Minister of Defence, Bjørn Arild Gram.

«I am very pleased that we have been able to finalize this agreement, which is Norway’s largest ever sale of government owned military equipment. Norwegian F-16s have been among the best maintained of their kind, with high technical standards throughout. I congratulate the negotiation teams of both countries for their efforts. Through this agreement, our F-16s will continue to serve one of our NATO-allies for several years to come,” said Ms. Gro Jære, Director General of the Norwegian Defence Materiel Agency.

Includes services by Norwegian industry

Under the contract all aircraft will undergo necessary maintenance and aircraft modification to M6.5.2 Romanian configuration with US support prior to delivery, currently scheduled for 2023-24. This work will be conducted by Norwegian industry, which also will provide training and other logistical services that will support the long-term availability of the aircraft.

“When selling the F-16 fleet we have worked to also secure opportunities for Norwegian industry. In this particular case, to supplement our sale of aircraft and equipment, Kongsberg Aviation Maintenance Services has been chosen as a strategic partner, delivering support, maintenance and training of Romanian technical personnel,” said Ms. Jære.

Facts and figures

• In 2019 the Norwegian Ministry of Defence tasked the NDMA with the sale and disposal of the Norwegian F-16 fleet after its retirement from service in a way most beneficial to the Norwegian state.
• On 04 November the NDMA signed a contract with Romania for the sale of two squadrons, a total of 32 aircraft, with associated equipment and spare parts. The contract also includes maintenance, aircraft modification and technical training services.
• The value of the contract amounts to 388 million Euros.
• The first delivery to Romania is currently planned for late 2023, with the second in 2024.
• The NDMA has previously signed a contract with Draken International for the sale of up to 12 F-16s, which are to be used under a training services agreement with the US Air Force.
• The sale of F-16s and related equipment is tightly regulated, and the current contract will need approval from both Norwegian and US export control authorities.

Norway signs F-16-contract with Romania - regjeringen.no