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Defending the Irish airspace

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  • na grohmiti
    replied
    More info on the Croatian deal.
    Rafale Fighter Jet Acquisition: A Major Leap Forward for the Croatian Air Force – Defense Security Monitor (forecastinternational.com)

    F3-R B and C versions are the French Air Force types (as opposed to the French Navy M version), Meanwhile France continues to upgrade or replace all their type with the F4 version.

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  • GoneToTheCanner
    replied
    The Fougas were captured in their crates in the Congo and were taken by the UN as booty, in effect and we bought them from Aerospatiale and had them fitted with VOR/ILS instruments in Aer Lingus. Two were bought from Austria. They all had very few hours on them and were overhauled and upgraded to near new condition. For what they were, they were good aircraft and our pilots and mechs loved them. Also,the AC has constantly test-flown dozens of aircraft but invariably has to bow to the DoD.

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  • na grohmiti
    replied
    When you consider the Fouga was also a 1st gen jet trainer, we actually took a step backwards with its purchase. Vampires had ejector seats, Fouga...well they did well gliding when you lost all power. The fact that ours were already 2nd hand by then also, causes much head scratching.
    The main point of concern though is the fact Irish soldiers had actually been subject to strafing by one of the type, operated by a Belgian mercenary, in the Congo during the Seige of Jadotville.
    Imagine if the RN had chosen Mirage or Skyhawks in the wake of the Falklands, or the US after seeing the type's usefulness at Pearl Harbor, decided to go with Mitsubishi A6M Zero as its carrier based fighter.

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  • Anzac
    replied
    The Vampire was useful as a trainer in its day. My lot flew both the T.11 trainer and single seater FB.5 between 1951 and 1972 before being replaced by the BAC Strikemaster a trainer / attack variant of the Provost MkV. As a combat aircraft the single seater Vamps were dated by the mid 1950s and the policy was to only fly the Vamp's at home and to lease the more punchy DH.122 Venoms abroad on operations such as in Malaya as they were very easy to convert across to. Until the Venoms also became too dated.

    The IAC buying the Fouga's in the mid 1970's seemed a curious selection as they were also getting long in the tooth. Does anyone remember how that came about?
    Last edited by Anzac; 11 July 2021, 03:27.

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  • Sparky42
    replied
    Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post

    The acquisition period for our frontline aircraft was 1943 when we got 11 Hurricanes to add to the one salvaged after a forced landing ,this was followed by the Seafires LF111 and later the Vampires. They were all contemporary to 1940-1950, the logical sequence with fighter squadrons is to replace and update, as it is with all items of defence. We all acquiesced in the ad hoc and fitting things to suit the choosers in the halls of power. Right now we cannot do ordinary things expected for 2021.
    Even with that however the choice of Seafire makes no sense, why buy an modified design for Carriers with features such as the folding wings for us? You want Spitfires, fine the RAF were giving them away (though I would have suggested looking at US airframes), moreover I'd have to disagree with the suggestion that they were still contemporary aircraft. They were still in use for the UK due in no small part wartime needs, The ones that continued in service in the RAF were the Griffon engined airframes, more powerful than the Merlin powered Seafires (hell the RN used the Griffon ones as well).

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  • GoneToTheCanner
    replied
    Well,the Vampires had the hitting power of 20mm cannon and 25 pound rockets and by being two seaters,gave valuable experience of jet flight to a whole generation of Irish pilots. By the mid 60s,though, they were seriously outdated,even as trainers. Taking as long as 1977 to get Fougas was another joke.

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  • ancientmariner
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Just on the Seafires, can anyone explain to me what was the logic in us picking them? I mean of the list of post WW2 airframes that could have been picked up why did we pick a carrier modifed Pre WW2 design when there were so many others as options?
    The acquisition period for our frontline aircraft was 1943 when we got 11 Hurricanes to add to the one salvaged after a forced landing ,this was followed by the Seafires LF111 and later the Vampires. They were all contemporary to 1940-1950, the logical sequence with fighter squadrons is to replace and update, as it is with all items of defence. We all acquiesced in the ad hoc and fitting things to suit the choosers in the halls of power. Right now we cannot do ordinary things expected for 2021.

    Leave a comment:


  • na grohmiti
    replied
    Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    They were cheap and that was all that mattered when the Govt was slashing budgets. We could have got any aircraft,gun,tank,ship, weapon from a world awash with weapons after WW 2, practically for nothing,yet we got Seafires. Same with the Comets and the Churchills . Nice but not to be continued in service for decades.
    One could think that someone was trying to curtail the expansion of the Defence Forces Post-War. Even the new Naval Service managed to procure the least useful of the hundreds of surplus Convoy escorts that were available, and having asked for 6, got just 3.
    With regards to the Seafire, they were still less obsolete in 1954 than the Vampires were.

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  • Anzac
    replied
    https://www.dmilt.com/netherlands-mo...international/

    The Dutch are selling off more of their F-16 A/B MLU's. This time to Draken.

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  • GoneToTheCanner
    replied
    They were cheap and that was all that mattered when the Govt was slashing budgets. We could have got any aircraft,gun,tank,ship, weapon from a world awash with weapons after WW 2, practically for nothing,yet we got Seafires. Same with the Comets and the Churchills . Nice but not to be continued in service for decades.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparky42
    replied
    Just on the Seafires, can anyone explain to me what was the logic in us picking them? I mean of the list of post WW2 airframes that could have been picked up why did we pick a carrier modifed Pre WW2 design when there were so many others as options?

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  • Sparky42
    replied
    Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

    Not since the introduction of the DH Vampires at least. Before then we were equipped with Seafires up to 1954. The Harrier T8 of it's day. Once we went with the DH Vampire, we gave up any interception ability. The RAF already considered the Vampire obsolete by 1953, which is probably why we got them.
    The Seafires were equally obsolete as the Hurricanes were before them (both out performed by the later war propellor airframes and then by the second gen jets that were starting their test campaigns to come into service later in the 50s, hell the Hawker Sea Fury was still in production in 1954 and far outperformed what is basically a pre WW2 design) that’s why the U.K. sold them on to us. Hell if the British didn’t have to return/destroy some much of the Lend Lease equipment I doubt the Seafire would have been in service for as long as it was, and hell we didn’t even get the Griffen engined variants.

    Besides which given we never created any sort of air defence command it’s basically irrelevant as to what airplane we were flying, unless someone called ahead or someone in Baldonnel was out for a joyride they were never going to be able to control our airspace.
    Last edited by Sparky42; 9 July 2021, 23:09.

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  • na grohmiti
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post

    Don't think it's a question of "allowed to be pulled", the DF answers to the Government of the day, said government has no interest in funding such capabilities, then they go away. And in terms of the AC, they never had teeth to be pulled in the first place given how outdated and limited their capabilities have always been in terms of air interception.
    Not since the introduction of the DH Vampires at least. Before then we were equipped with Seafires up to 1954. The Harrier T8 of it's day. Once we went with the DH Vampire, we gave up any interception ability. The RAF already considered the Vampire obsolete by 1953, which is probably why we got them.

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  • Sparky42
    replied
    Originally posted by Silver View Post
    I spotted an interesting article in AFM today -

    Croatia choose Rafale as their next fighter

    Apparently, they had previously considered Israeli-sourced F-16’s
    From memory the US intervened, wanted Croatia to buy from them rather than the Israelis (as the US ultimately has the decision on any American hardware being sold on), Croatia instead got a good deal from the French who want to off load their older Rafales and replace them with new builds.

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  • Sparky42
    replied
    Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post

    The history of the UK's WW11 establishment of an all UK Air Defence and Surveillance scheme has continued and provided the groundwork for today's scheme with designated 24/7 QRA units. Their Operations room screens show our island to the West and it is in Range of any required QRA intervention. We militarily have shown lack of interest and have shed all means of intervention. It is up to professionals to remedy perceived short comings. Pity in all branches that we have let so much slip and allowed teeth to be pulled.
    Don't think it's a question of "allowed to be pulled", the DF answers to the Government of the day, said government has no interest in funding such capabilities, then they go away. And in terms of the AC, they never had teeth to be pulled in the first place given how outdated and limited their capabilities have always been in terms of air interception.

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