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  • We have people here complaining about noise at our largest military training area, a place so steeped in military history, its nearby roads have been known as "Military road" since the 1700s. You should have known what you were getting into.
    Shannon is ideal. Its already de-facto US military airbase anyway, more interesting visitors over the weekend. May as well put a guardroom there and go the whole hog. Would save the lads in the 1st and 12th a fortune in sandwiches if you put blue railings around part of it.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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    • The main problem is not lengthening the runways at the Don but the encroachment on the base by the development of Dublin. In the next years this will continue and might even accelerate if we get a lot of Brexit refugees from London! Even today there would be issues with noise and to the cost of extending the runways there would be the costs of new hangars etc.

      Shannon was originally built by the Air Corp and it has struggled over the years since flight are no longer required to make a stop-over there. The investment in new hangars etc would be the same with the advantage that it might be possible to sub-contract work to local companies. A big advantage of moving some of the Air Corps to Shannon is the lower housing cost, which would make a big difference for many.

      Comment


      • Never have been to Shannon but Mr Google Maps was useful in getting the lay of the land.

        It looks like a cost effective solution as adjacent over on the NW side of the runway where there is already a Lufthansa facility there is plenty of space. A number of major airports are dual civil-military including Elgin USAF, Changi RSAF and Komaki JASDF. With ATC protocols in place it can work very well. Building a new air base in a new location would be fraught with NIMBY types not to mention the massive cost to do so.

        In the 1990's the RNZAF closed down Wigram Air base which the city of Christchurch effectively built around its perimeter. Govt sold the land to developers and reduced operations were shifted to the nearby international airport (They typically then took the cash and spent the rest elsewhere and not on defence). However the option of the sale of the Don for development, and a reduced Air Movements facility set up at Dublin airport for MATS and the majority of the proceeds of the Don sale invested in a new purpose built facility to house the Air Corp at Shannon could be worth a business case study.

        Comment


        • Combined with the chance of their offspring having a real chance of seeing their home team win at Hurling, Football AND rugby.
          German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
          German 2: Private? I am a general!
          German 1: That is the bad news.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Anzac View Post
            Never have been to Shannon but Mr Google Maps was useful in getting the lay of the land.

            It looks like a cost effective solution as adjacent over on the NW side of the runway where there is already a Lufthansa facility there is plenty of space. A number of major airports are dual civil-military including Elgin USAF, Changi RSAF and Komaki JASDF. With ATC protocols in place it can work very well. Building a new air base in a new location would be fraught with NIMBY types not to mention the massive cost to do so.

            In the 1990's the RNZAF closed down Wigram Air base which the city of Christchurch effectively built around its perimeter. Govt sold the land to developers and reduced operations were shifted to the nearby international airport (They typically then took the cash and spent the rest elsewhere and not on defence). However the option of the sale of the Don for development, and a reduced Air Movements facility set up at Dublin airport for MATS and the majority of the proceeds of the Don sale invested in a new purpose built facility to house the Air Corp at Shannon could be worth a business case study.
            Some background to Shannon, for the outsider. It started life as a Rineanna Seaplane base during what you call the 2nd World war by the Irish Air Corps. Transatlantic seaplanes has used the Shannon Estuary for much of the 1930s and 1940s, operating from Foynes, on the other side of the Estuary. It was here the Irish Coffee was invented, to give passengers a pick me up, before they continued on their journey. The Air Corps operated 3 Walrus seaplanes from here during the War. WHen the Air Corps Departed, a new Airport was built here to serve the transatlantic airliners that had replaced the Seaplanes. It took advantage of mandatory stopovers for US flights, and later on was th eonly place where you could preclear US Customs and Border patrol. Initially it had a longer runway than other airports in Ireland, so many would stop there and nowhere else. Later on because of its long runway and rural location it was one of the alternates for returning Space Shuttles, should they miss their window to land on the US East Coast. Concorde also used it as a training airport, and were frequent (empty) visitors, as their pilots practised touch and gos. During the first Gulf War it became a popular stopover for US military flights heading for the Gulf Region, and a fleet of Ukranian owned AN-124 were based here for many years. At the height of the 2nd Gulf war the US military stopovers became a regular occurrence, as carriers like Omni Air stopped here, and gave the US military passengers a chance to stretch their legs and take advantage of the internet in the huge transit lounge. Some of the more crusty types took offence to this type of use, and made frequent incursions onto the airfield to "inspect" the military aircraft for weapons. Some succeeded in causing damage to aircraft parked on the ground, and security was beefed up as a result, with local army units rostered to protect visiting aircraft.
            The layout of the ramp means you can safely park visitors in the middle of the airfield, considerable distance from any perimeter fence that may be breached by those with ill intent, be they terrorist or pacifist.
            The Lufthansa (SAL/STT) hangar is so large it causes an artificial crosswind in certain conditions. Aircraft midway through landing suddenly have to deal with airflow which up to then had been sheltered by the Hangar profile.
            As you say, the area to the north next to the Lufthansa facility would be ideally located for a potential Air Corps 2nd base. It has good road access, but minimal private residences to annoy.
            German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
            German 2: Private? I am a general!
            German 1: That is the bad news.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Anzac View Post
              Never have been to Shannon but Mr Google Maps was useful in getting the lay of the land.

              It looks like a cost effective solution as adjacent over on the NW side of the runway where there is already a Lufthansa facility there is plenty of space. A number of major airports are dual civil-military including Elgin USAF, Changi RSAF and Komaki JASDF. With ATC protocols in place it can work very well. Building a new air base in a new location would be fraught with NIMBY types not to mention the massive cost to do so.

              In the 1990's the RNZAF closed down Wigram Air base which the city of Christchurch effectively built around its perimeter. Govt sold the land to developers and reduced operations were shifted to the nearby international airport (They typically then took the cash and spent the rest elsewhere and not on defence). However the option of the sale of the Don for development, and a reduced Air Movements facility set up at Dublin airport for MATS and the majority of the proceeds of the Don sale invested in a new purpose built facility to house the Air Corp at Shannon could be worth a business case study.
              Has certainly been done on the Island of Ireland before; Belfast International Airport has always been joint civil / military, the military side known as Joint Helicopter Command Aldergrove, though as the Crabs are slowly taking over again I suspect it'll be RAF Aldergrove again before too long.

              Hamid Karzai International Airport in Kabul is likewise joint civil / military...you'll see Turkish Airlines aircraft waiting to taxi as bombed up A-29s take off to give the good news to the enemy.

              Baldonnel would be worth eye watering sums on the open market for re-development. Move most of the operation to Shannon, with a small presence at Dublin for MATS and GASU / Air Ambulance.
              'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

              Comment


              • Am I right in thinking that Michael O’Leary wanted a piece of Baldonnel at one stage for Ryanair? Not that he’s in a position to do more than tread water for a year or so.
                'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
                'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
                Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
                He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
                http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

                Comment


                • I know the Dublin Councils have since the 00s had Baldonnel in their sights for future city growth, sooner or later I can see them getting a government to consider it. Course for the AC, staff cost of livings would surely be massively changed with a West Coast basing?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
                    Am I right in thinking that Michael O’Leary wanted a piece of Baldonnel at one stage for Ryanair? Not that he’s in a position to do more than tread water for a year or so.
                    Yes

                    In March he agreed to take a 50% basic pay cut to €250k!
                    In September he got a bonus of nearly €500k!
                    Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                    I know the Dublin Councils have since the 00s had Baldonnel in their sights for future city growth, sooner or later I can see them getting a government to consider it. Course for the AC, staff cost of livings would surely be massively changed with a West Coast basing?
                    Of course their families may not want to move to the other side of the country

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                      Of course their families may not want to move to the other side of the country
                      That's a given of course, hell some of the AC people themselves may not be too eager either, but for a host of reasons sooner or later I think the current status quo in Baldonnel is going to change.

                      Comment


                      • Keep an eye on Weston. That might become housing sooner rather than later,which would also put the kibosh on extending the runway at Baldonnel. If the Govt did decide to shift the AC to Shannon, they'd have to hand over some of the money raised from the sale to pay for adding a Mil base to Shannon and that'd cost a pretty penny. Also, if you decided to erase Baldonnel for housing or industrial development, you'd have to tear out the fuel farm and deal with the legacy of a hundred years of polluted soil. They shifted a lot of scrap and toxic waste when they built the fuel farm and new hangar but a considerable amount remains. The Camp has several legacy dumps that are under or near existing buildings and might raise their ugly heads if the site went for development.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                          Combined with the chance of their offspring having a real chance of seeing their home team win at Hurling, Football AND rugby.
                          Oh you flatter us!....

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                            The Camp has several legacy dumps that are under or near existing buildings and might raise their ugly heads if the site went for development.
                            Aswell as a squadron of smashed up Hurricanes!

                            Comment


                            • Retain Bal for rotary wing and secure VIP movements.
                              Just move the rest of operational flying to Shannon.
                              German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
                              German 2: Private? I am a general!
                              German 1: That is the bad news.

                              Comment


                              • In a country where politicians normally ignore the Defence Forces if there was even a whiff of the AC ever looking for a new home base they would be crawling out of the woodwork like nobody's business. Ever airport outside of Dublin would be shouting that they are the best for the re-location. You would even have the possibility of some proposing new airports like one in the Mid-lands; could see Mike O'Leary pushing that.

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