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  • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
    I was thinking a more integrated approach,
    Sligo 1x S92
    Shannon 1x S92 active, 1x S92 back-up
    Waterford 1x S92
    Dublin 1x H145 active, 1 H145 back-up
    Cork 1x H145
    Athlone/Galway 1x H145

    The S92s would have a primary SAR mission with a secondary EMS, while the H-145s would have EMS as primary with SAR as secondary. It need not be a H-145 but could be a A109 etc. All would be under one command structure with takes care of tasking for all helicopters. The S92s on the west coast where the range comes in more useful than on the east coast. I have put the H145 as it offers more room than the H135 but is still suitable for landing in built-up areas/residential areas. But it is just a proposal.
    For SAR it isn’t just range but also capacity (imagine a large ferry requiring a major evacuation), also if the West get a call and they have another call on going they can be tasked.

    Why do they think 139 is better?
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Medevac-Fly.../dp/B082D82Y4H
    Excellent read!

    Range, more capacity, slightly faster and importantly more room to work on the patient

    Comment


    • Originally posted by DeV View Post
      For SAR it isn’t just range but also capacity (imagine a large ferry requiring a major evacuation), also if the West get a call and they have another call on going they can be tasked.
      If a large ferry needed helicopter evacuation all helicopters on both islands would be mobilised not just those tasked to a sector.
      And as for the second scenario that is no different from today, if the Sligo helicopter is out on a mission say off Mayo and a call comes for an incident off Donegal either the Dublin or Shannon unit will respond. In any case the "National Emergency Helicopter Service" would have 6 helicopters to call upon 24/7 with a further 2 as back-ups.

      It would be one unified command structure, island based not divided west vs east or north vs south.
      Last edited by EUFighter; 22 December 2020, 15:14.

      Comment


      • Drifting a long way from Military transport aircraft here though.
        German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
        German 2: Private? I am a general!
        German 1: That is the bad news.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
          Drifting a long way from Military transport aircraft here though.
          True, but we can see the same lack of a national strategic plan for the use of the state's resources. Let's take it a bit further, in the future we may end up having a lot more patient transfers to continental hospitals. For this the HSE has also had a plane on contract at Dublin. Yet again lack of joined up planning.

          The PC-12 does have some capability to perform patient transfer missions and we will surely see them used more and more in this function. And when it comes to replacing the Learjet hopefully it will be with some swing-mission PC24s (2-3), being able to do the MATS roles as well as patient transfer. As we have seen again and again providing a 24/7 functions needs to have resources allocated to it, not just tacked and with the "make do" attitude. If the AC were to be asked to provide a 24/7 patient transfer using lets say the PC-12 fleet then the pilots, ground crew etc need to be there in the establishment to do that.

          And talking of a strategic plan for transport aircraft even the likes of a C-130/C-390 should be included for emergency situations. But it should be the HSE turning up one morning at the Don and saying there is a need to move large numbers of patients. If there is something this year should have thought us is that there will be such cases. Some will be due to natural disasters such as earthquakes, man-made disasters like the explosion in Beirut or a pandemic affecting one country more than others.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
            True, but we can see the same lack of a national strategic plan for the use of the state's resources. Let's take it a bit further, in the future we may end up having a lot more patient transfers to continental hospitals. For this the HSE has also had a plane on contract at Dublin. Yet again lack of joined up planning.

            The PC-12 does have some capability to perform patient transfer missions and we will surely see them used more and more in this function. And when it comes to replacing the Learjet hopefully it will be with some swing-mission PC24s (2-3), being able to do the MATS roles as well as patient transfer. As we have seen again and again providing a 24/7 functions needs to have resources allocated to it, not just tacked and with the "make do" attitude. If the AC were to be asked to provide a 24/7 patient transfer using lets say the PC-12 fleet then the pilots, ground crew etc need to be there in the establishment to do that.

            And talking of a strategic plan for transport aircraft even the likes of a C-130/C-390 should be included for emergency situations. But it should be the HSE turning up one morning at the Don and saying there is a need to move large numbers of patients. If there is something this year should have thought us is that there will be such cases. Some will be due to natural disasters such as earthquakes, man-made disasters like the explosion in Beirut or a pandemic affecting one country more than others.
            It's not the lack of national strategy. It's the tossers in place who end up having the final say on what the Df get or not get.
            Last edited by sofa; 22 December 2020, 21:36.

            Comment


            • https://twitter.com/dfcarpediem/stat...184822785?s=21

              Comment


              • Originally posted by sofa View Post
                It's not the lack of national strategy. It's the tossers in place who end up having the final say on what the Df get or not get.
                It's both actually

                Comment


                • .....
                  Last edited by CTU; 18 January 2021, 10:30. Reason: Twitter Account Closed.
                  It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
                  It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
                  It was a new age...It was the end of history.
                  It was the year everything changed.

                  Comment


                  • That account and tweet have been deleted it seems, anything interesting from that tweet?

                    Comment


                    • Account no longer exists
                      What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

                      Comment


                      • Can anyone see the full story?
                        https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/m...ongo-gqm96slbw

                        A rift between the Department of Defence and the Defence Forces arose last year over plans to repatriate two soldiers from the Democratic Republic of Congo on the government’s Learjet, with senior civil servants disputing the “emergency” justification put forward by the military.

                        Documents released under freedom of information legislation show that the Department of Defence believed the military had become fixated on using the government jet for the mission, despite concerns about its reliability on a journey with up to eight legs. It was also concerned that a flight plan had “proved elusive”, and that there were proposed stop-offs in several countries affected by Covid-19 restrictions.
                        German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
                        German 2: Private? I am a general!
                        German 1: That is the bad news.

                        Comment


                        • A rift between the Department of Defence and the Defence Forces arose last year over plans to repatriate two soldiers from the Democratic Republic of Congo on the government’s Learjet, with senior civil servants disputing the “emergency” justification put forward by the military.

                          Documents released under freedom of information legislation show that the Department of Defence believed the military had become fixated on using the government jet for the mission, despite concerns about its reliability on a journey with up to eight legs. It was also concerned that a flight plan had “proved elusive”, and that there were proposed stop-offs in several countries affected by Covid-19 restrictions.

                          In the end, the two officers flew back to Ireland from the UN mission in Goma, Congo, last May on commercial flights, after handing over their weapons to local “friendly forces”.

                          Internal records show differences of opinion between the department and the Defence Forces over the operation, with a senior department official saying it had “proved almost impossible” to get the military to look at options apart from the Learjet.

                          A ministerial brief prepared by the department’s then secretary- general, Maurice Quinn, said it had not been an “emergency evacuation” given the two officers had been able to fly home on a commercial flight.

                          The brief said: “The Learjet was the only option put forward by the Defence Forces for the extraction. This clearly delayed the extraction. It proved almost impossible to get engagement with [them] . . . on the other options that were available.”

                          The briefing also said the military had become fixated on the officers’ weapons and how they could be safely brought back to Ireland. This appeared to have “diluted the priority on extracting the two officers”.

                          Carrying the guns through the airspaces of several countries added significant difficulty to the mission. “While not insurmountable,” said one department official in an email, “the inclusion of dangerous goods also adds further complexity to an already challenging ask.”

                          Records also show that the Department of Defence feared the extraction plan could cause problems with the UN. A senior official said use of the Learjet for the mission carried “significant diplomatic, service, and operational challenges”, and there was no contingency in place if the aircraft were to develop a technical issue in Africa.

                          The department also queried cost estimates of just over €65,000 put forward by the Defence Forces, reckoning that the real figure was closer to €115,000.

                          However, Mark Mellett, the Defence Forces chief of staff, warned about reputational risks for the military and Ireland if the soldiers were not repatriated. Mellett wrote: “It is unfortunate that after planning for a month there still is no clarity on a timeline associated with the use of the Learjet.”

                          Last week the department said personnel rotations were complex, and the pandemic added further challenges. “The documentation shows attempts to extract our personnel in a very dynamic and complex situation with changing diplomatic, medical, overflight, access and UN restrictions,” it said.

                          Commandant Laura Lafferty of the Defence Forces said Covid-19 had created “a very dynamic, complex and challenging situation from which to repatriate our personnel”.

                          She added that any claim of “overemphasis” on the weapons did not take account of security requirements in the area, and “basic military principles”.

                          Comment


                          • Oh.
                            My.
                            God!
                            The (former) sec gen saying the DF were fixated on weapons says a lot about what he considered his job to be. HELLO! This is the DEFENCE FORCES!!
                            They weren't there on a sightseeing tour.
                            Good Riddance.
                            German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
                            German 2: Private? I am a general!
                            German 1: That is the bad news.

                            Comment


                            • "Military Charter Flight"

                              Hey DoD, there is such a thing as Google! The companies even do your work for you!

                              https://www.angloeuropean.com/en/ser...arter-flights/

                              But in fairness, paying €100,000 just because of at most €5,000 worth of weapons is a bit stupid from the Military side.

                              Worst case, the weapons could have been cut up/melted at a safe point before boarding.

                              Leaves the relief rotation with the importing of weapons problem though. Sure a couple of second hand FAL/AKMs would be easy to come by!
                              Last edited by TangoSierra; 18 January 2021, 16:42.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                                Oh.
                                My.
                                God!
                                The (former) sec gen saying the DF were fixated on weapons says a lot about what he considered his job to be. HELLO! This is the DEFENCE FORCES!!
                                They weren't there on a sightseeing tour.
                                Good Riddance.
                                Without wishing to be seen as taking the DOD side here, thats not what it says.

                                I'm afraid my recollection of the thread rather chimes with that specific charge - people here were obsessing about the individual weapons of the two and how they needed to be completely secure. My suggestion, iirc, of throwing in them in a river or in a garbage truck was met with howls of outrage.

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