Military transport aircraft

[GoneToTheCanner]

Well in the C235 fleet they aren’t low houred, would it make sense to have?:

2 x (larger) C295 MSA
1 x (larger) C295 utility
2 x (small) C235 converted back to utility

Personally I would ask could we do a deal with Airbus to return the C235s, could be for:
- ask are the 2 x C295H still available
- 4th C295 (could be utility, MSA or MPA)
- change the 3rd C295 to either another MSA or MPA (and then go for C130/A400/C390)

The C295 utility obviously has a large more utility as a transport to the C235 being larger and longer ranged.

It would be lovely to have 2 MPA and 2 utility C295s but that's a ways down the road yet and the 235s are nearby and easily reverted to utility role and the familiarity is there in the organisation. jam now or jam tomorrow...

[DeV]

So what. Aircraft like the 235 can be overhauled until the world runs out of aluminium. For the low amount of annual hours the Don would put on them as pure transporters, they would justify any purchase. PC-12s are realistically too small and are essentially a sop and a polite eff-off message to the Don not to look for anything bigger. The Don has already demonstrated with the King Air, 125 and Gulfies that its perfectly possible to use aircraft as they are meant to be used and then flog them off for half nothing to find that those self same aircraft get a whole new life in civvy street, doing pretty much what they did for the Don. The Dauphins in Chile are a case in point.
It’s as if there is an absolute mental block in the Govt that the State must not possess airlift under any circumstances, except the most token amount. It's deeply ironic considering that Ireland is a global force in aircraft leasing, has produced generations of highly skilled pilots, aircraft techs, support personnel of all kinds and aerospace companies to beat the band and we can overhaul anything that ever flew, yet our State will not buy or retain even such a basic cargo aircraft as a 235. An island nation with no airlift is a dead duck.

Well in the C235 fleet they aren’t low houred, would it make sense to have?:

2 x (larger) C295 MSA
1 x (larger) C295 utility
2 x (small) C235 converted back to utility

Personally I would ask could we do a deal with Airbus to return the C235s, could be for:
- ask are the 2 x C295H still available
- 4th C295 (could be utility, MSA or MPA)
- change the 3rd C295 to either another MSA or MPA (and then go for C130/A400/C390)

The C295 utility obviously has a large more utility as a transport to the C235 being larger and longer ranged.

[GoneToTheCanner]

So what. Aircraft like the 235 can be overhauled until the world runs out of aluminium. For the low amount of annual hours the Don would put on them as pure transporters, they would justify any purchase. PC-12s are realistically too small and are essentially a sop and a polite eff-off message to the Don not to look for anything bigger. The Don has already demonstrated with the King Air, 125 and Gulfies that its perfectly possible to use aircraft as they are meant to be used and then flog them off for half nothing to find that those self same aircraft get a whole new life in civvy street, doing pretty much what they did for the Don. The Dauphins in Chile are a case in point.
Its as if there is an absolute mental block in the Govt that the State must not possess airlift under any circumstances, except the most token amount. It's deeply ironic considering that Ireland is a global force in aircraft leasing, has produced generations of highly skilled pilots, aircraft techs, support personnel of all kinds and aerospace companies to beat the band and we can overhaul anything that ever flew, yet our State will not buy or retain even such a basic cargo aircraft as a 235. An island nation with no airlift is a dead duck.

[DeV]

It wont happen because DoD says so; thou shalt not have more than two twin engined turboprops because the sword of no pilots and no techs is held against you. There is no earthly reason not to retain the old Casas as plain freighters because they have low total times on their airframes and engines and were minded like they were made of glass.

The 2 Irish C235s have the highest hours of any in the world though?

[GoneToTheCanner]

A good friend worked on the Luas and also for a sub contractor on Mainline work. The Alsthoms varied from good to absolute tat, depending on which factory in Europe built them. Trying to mix Spanish and French LUAS carriages was not a good thing. LUAS management seemed to have a talent for forcing people out, through sheer ineptitude. The workplace experience with Irish Rail, when one is a subbie, varied from "yes, what can we do for you?" to "Union rules, bud". The Korean railcar I was in yesterday was built in 2007 and was in good shape for it's age.

[WhingeNot]

.... and on a bit of diversion from the topic!... i was thinking of all of the later generation DARTs which are all Japanese (Tokyu Car) (besides the Alsthoms that were so troublesome they were retired very early), and the earlier diesel commuters that are still used down the Cork or west area...the bogies on the DARTs were apparently so liked by Irish Rail and so reliable, that they wanted them on the later Korean railcars. Says something about quality products (and standardisation of important components across fleets i suppose).

[CTU]

Th railcars are Korean, built by Hyundai but the logic is the same.

To be more precise the railcars are Korean - the Bogies are Japanese.

[GoneToTheCanner]

I was thinking along the same lines earlier this year.

However, from what I have read, the older CASAs have high hours on both airframes and are unlikely to be retained.

It wont happen because DoD says so; thou shalt not have more than two twin engined turboprops because the sword of no pilots and no techs is held against you. There is no earthly reason not to retain the old Casas as plain freighters because they have low total times on their airframes and engines and were minded like they were made of glass.

[GoneToTheCanner]

A lease from Japan with favourable terms to Ireland, as an introductory customer to Europe (and a good advertisement during the EU presidency), would possibly solve many of those problems i.e. spares and support to be the providers problem... Shannon could be the maintenance location... Can't help but think again of Irish Rail buying a load of Japanese trains years ago, when pretty much everyone else in Europe was buying/ leasing from mainstream European manufacturers only. Now it is common enough for Japanese products, or Japanese companies now based in Europe, to supply trains in Europe. A lease of something big, from Japan, or Brazil, may be most palatable, and get people / govt. use to the idea than an outright purchase and from other types of countries that might be seen as more political.

Th railcars are Korean, built by Hyundai but the logic is the same.

[Silver]

I forgot of course about the two older MPA Casa's, i'm not up to date on those - in storage? Was mentioned here that maybe they could be 'converted' to plain transport as well? Could make a nice fleet when added to above! For say, UN service. more at home/ and EU etc.

I was thinking along the same lines earlier this year.

However, from what I have read, the older CASAs have high hours on both airframes and are unlikely to be retained.

[WhingeNot]

I forgot of course about the two older MPA Casa's, i'm not up to date on those - in storage? Was mentioned here that maybe they could be 'converted' to plain transport as well? Could make a nice fleet when added to above! For say, UN service. more at home/ and EU etc.

[WhingeNot]

A lease from Japan with favourable terms to Ireland, as an introductory customer to Europe (and a good advertisement during the EU presidency), would possibly solve many of those problems i.e. spares and support to be the providers problem... Shannon could be the maintenance location... Can't help but think again of Irish Rail buying a load of Japanese trains years ago, when pretty much everyone else in Europe was buying/ leasing from mainstream European manufacturers only. Now it is common enough for Japanese products, or Japanese companies now based in Europe, to supply trains in Europe. A lease of something big, from Japan, or Brazil, may be most palatable, and get people / govt. use to the idea than an outright purchase and from other types of countries that might be seen as more political.

[GoneToTheCanner]

That 737 combi looks like it had similar design/role and size to the the Airbus A310 - military version MRT & MRTT (i think Germany and Canada have recently got rid of theirs), but the larger and next gen A330 would probably be too big for the Air Corps/ Defence forces needs?

It also looks like the Embraer C-390 is becoming popular, and maybe used by some smaller nations for MATS / govt. flights. Though i like the look of the Japanese C-2 (with fairly common airliner engines it seems) - bigger than the C-390, but similar size, but a bit shorter length and height then the A310, and would be in the next class size up from the C-130 herc' (and so a good bit bigger than the incoming Casa transport for 2025). Could do many of the things the PDF light like, and would look a bit better for MATS/ govt. visits than the Casa (or any C-130).

It the Aer Corps could jump on the Garda tender for a couple of new small twin-props too, and get some basic and top-spec single engine Cessnas, with the Casa already coming, and potentially a new G5 business type small jet too,.. and a C-2 (in my dreams) - would that make a well rounded transport fleet?

Someone on this board mentioned that Ireland takes the 6 month revolving EU lead in 2025? Gives time to purchase/ lease a good fleet for then (at least for transport function and some good appearances on the EU stage!).

It's quite smaller than a 310, which is basically the forerunner to the A330 (same hull diameter). The problem with buying Japanese is that their production runs tend to be small, their unit costs tend to be higher than European or American equivalents and their spares costs are also really high. Nothing wrong with their build quality etc but they have no foothold in Europe for building and supporting aircraft, compared to Western firms. Embraer have a much better grasp on supply and support.

[WhingeNot]

That 737 combi looks like it had similar design/role and size to the the Airbus A310 - military version MRT & MRTT (i think Germany and Canada have recently got rid of theirs), but the larger and next gen A330 would probably be too big for the Air Corps/ Defence forces needs?

It also looks like the Embraer C-390 is becoming popular, and maybe used by some smaller nations for MATS / govt. flights. Though i like the look of the Japanese C-2 (with fairly common airliner engines it seems) - bigger than the C-390, but similar size, but a bit shorter length and height then the A310, and would be in the next class size up from the C-130 herc' (and so a good bit bigger than the incoming Casa transport for 2025). Could do many of the things the PDF light like, and would look a bit better for MATS/ govt. visits than the Casa (or any C-130).

It the Aer Corps could jump on the Garda tender for a couple of new small twin-props too, and get some basic and top-spec single engine Cessnas, with the Casa already coming, and potentially a new G5 business type small jet too,.. and a C-2 (in my dreams) - would that make a well rounded transport fleet?

Someone on this board mentioned that Ireland takes the 6 month revolving EU lead in 2025? Gives time to purchase/ lease a good fleet for then (at least for transport function and some good appearances on the EU stage!).

[GoneToTheCanner]

Were they built as combis from new or converted?

I think it was three as original Combis. A roller floor was put in and the forward cargo door fitted from new. They had a smaller galley and toilet arrangement for pure cargo but the Combi had a full galley/toilet setup in the dismountable sections. There were quick-detach fittings for water, air and electrical power, otherwise they were as standard as the normal full pax 737-200.