Military transport aircraft

[na grohmiti]

Never have been to Shannon but Mr Google Maps was useful in getting the lay of the land.

It looks like a cost effective solution as adjacent over on the NW side of the runway where there is already a Lufthansa facility there is plenty of space. A number of major airports are dual civil-military including Elgin USAF, Changi RSAF and Komaki JASDF. With ATC protocols in place it can work very well. Building a new air base in a new location would be fraught with NIMBY types not to mention the massive cost to do so.

In the 1990's the RNZAF closed down Wigram Air base which the city of Christchurch effectively built around its perimeter. Govt sold the land to developers and reduced operations were shifted to the nearby international airport (They typically then took the cash and spent the rest elsewhere and not on defence). However the option of the sale of the Don for development, and a reduced Air Movements facility set up at Dublin airport for MATS and the majority of the proceeds of the Don sale invested in a new purpose built facility to house the Air Corp at Shannon could be worth a business case study.

Some background to Shannon, for the outsider. It started life as a Rineanna Seaplane base during what you call the 2nd World war by the Irish Air Corps. Transatlantic seaplanes has used the Shannon Estuary for much of the 1930s and 1940s, operating from Foynes, on the other side of the Estuary. It was here the Irish Coffee was invented, to give passengers a pick me up, before they continued on their journey. The Air Corps operated 3 Walrus seaplanes from here during the War. WHen the Air Corps Departed, a new Airport was built here to serve the transatlantic airliners that had replaced the Seaplanes. It took advantage of mandatory stopovers for US flights, and later on was th eonly place where you could preclear US Customs and Border patrol. Initially it had a longer runway than other airports in Ireland, so many would stop there and nowhere else. Later on because of its long runway and rural location it was one of the alternates for returning Space Shuttles, should they miss their window to land on the US East Coast. Concorde also used it as a training airport, and were frequent (empty) visitors, as their pilots practised touch and gos. During the first Gulf War it became a popular stopover for US military flights heading for the Gulf Region, and a fleet of Ukranian owned AN-124 were based here for many years. At the height of the 2nd Gulf war the US military stopovers became a regular occurrence, as carriers like Omni Air stopped here, and gave the US military passengers a chance to stretch their legs and take advantage of the internet in the huge transit lounge. Some of the more crusty types took offence to this type of use, and made frequent incursions onto the airfield to "inspect" the military aircraft for weapons. Some succeeded in causing damage to aircraft parked on the ground, and security was beefed up as a result, with local army units rostered to protect visiting aircraft.
The layout of the ramp means you can safely park visitors in the middle of the airfield, considerable distance from any perimeter fence that may be breached by those with ill intent, be they terrorist or pacifist.
The Lufthansa (SAL/STT) hangar is so large it causes an artificial crosswind in certain conditions. Aircraft midway through landing suddenly have to deal with airflow which up to then had been sheltered by the Hangar profile.
As you say, the area to the north next to the Lufthansa facility would be ideally located for a potential Air Corps 2nd base. It has good road access, but minimal private residences to annoy.

[spider]

Never have been to Shannon but Mr Google Maps was useful in getting the lay of the land.

It looks like a cost effective solution as adjacent over on the NW side of the runway where there is already a Lufthansa facility there is plenty of space. A number of major airports are dual civil-military including Elgin USAF, Changi RSAF and Komaki JASDF. With ATC protocols in place it can work very well. Building a new air base in a new location would be fraught with NIMBY types not to mention the massive cost to do so.

In the 1990's the RNZAF closed down Wigram Air base which the city of Christchurch effectively built around its perimeter. Govt sold the land to developers and reduced operations were shifted to the nearby international airport (They typically then took the cash and spent the rest elsewhere and not on defence). However the option of the sale of the Don for development, and a reduced Air Movements facility set up at Dublin airport for MATS and the majority of the proceeds of the Don sale invested in a new purpose built facility to house the Air Corp at Shannon could be worth a business case study.

Has certainly been done on the Island of Ireland before; Belfast International Airport has always been joint civil / military, the military side known as Joint Helicopter Command Aldergrove, though as the Crabs are slowly taking over again I suspect it'll be RAF Aldergrove again before too long.

Hamid Karzai International Airport in Kabul is likewise joint civil / military...you'll see Turkish Airlines aircraft waiting to taxi as bombed up A-29s take off to give the good news to the enemy.

Baldonnel would be worth eye watering sums on the open market for re-development. Move most of the operation to Shannon, with a small presence at Dublin for MATS and GASU / Air Ambulance.

[Flamingo]

Am I right in thinking that Michael O’Leary wanted a piece of Baldonnel at one stage for Ryanair? Not that he’s in a position to do more than tread water for a year or so.

[Sparky42]

I know the Dublin Councils have since the 00s had Baldonnel in their sights for future city growth, sooner or later I can see them getting a government to consider it. Course for the AC, staff cost of livings would surely be massively changed with a West Coast basing?

[DeV]

Am I right in thinking that Michael O’Leary wanted a piece of Baldonnel at one stage for Ryanair? Not that he’s in a position to do more than tread water for a year or so.

Yes

In March he agreed to take a 50% basic pay cut to €250k!
In September he got a bonus of nearly €500k!

I know the Dublin Councils have since the 00s had Baldonnel in their sights for future city growth, sooner or later I can see them getting a government to consider it. Course for the AC, staff cost of livings would surely be massively changed with a West Coast basing?

Of course their families may not want to move to the other side of the country

[Sparky42]

Of course their families may not want to move to the other side of the country

That's a given of course, hell some of the AC people themselves may not be too eager either, but for a host of reasons sooner or later I think the current status quo in Baldonnel is going to change.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Keep an eye on Weston. That might become housing sooner rather than later,which would also put the kibosh on extending the runway at Baldonnel. If the Govt did decide to shift the AC to Shannon, they'd have to hand over some of the money raised from the sale to pay for adding a Mil base to Shannon and that'd cost a pretty penny. Also, if you decided to erase Baldonnel for housing or industrial development, you'd have to tear out the fuel farm and deal with the legacy of a hundred years of polluted soil. They shifted a lot of scrap and toxic waste when they built the fuel farm and new hangar but a considerable amount remains. The Camp has several legacy dumps that are under or near existing buildings and might raise their ugly heads if the site went for development.

[Rocinante]

Combined with the chance of their offspring having a real chance of seeing their home team win at Hurling, Football AND rugby.

Oh you flatter us!....

[pilatus]

The Camp has several legacy dumps that are under or near existing buildings and might raise their ugly heads if the site went for development.

Aswell as a squadron of smashed up Hurricanes!

[na grohmiti]

Retain Bal for rotary wing and secure VIP movements.
Just move the rest of operational flying to Shannon.

[EUFighter]

In a country where politicians normally ignore the Defence Forces if there was even a whiff of the AC ever looking for a new home base they would be crawling out of the woodwork like nobody's business. Ever airport outside of Dublin would be shouting that they are the best for the re-location. You would even have the possibility of some proposing new airports like one in the Mid-lands; could see Mike O'Leary pushing that.

[X-RayOne]

Move it all to Shannon.......sell off Baldonnel. Ensure the Don goes for full market value with proceeds ring fenced for new airbase, other defence infrastructure and equipment projects and re-location costs for current personnel.

Legacy dumps and contaminated soil haven't stopped a single development from going ahead ever. Look at IFSC and the soon to be new town at Poolbeg. Even Haulbowline has been remediated for the park.

[na grohmiti]

Tivoli docks had it's oil storage tank farm (and jetty) removed about ten years ago, old soil was dug up, replaced with hardcore, they expect to build high density residential there within the decade.

[EUFighter]

Move it all to Shannon.......sell off Baldonnel. Ensure the Don goes for full market value with proceeds ring fenced for new airbase, other defence infrastructure and equipment projects and re-location costs for current personnel.

The government almost never gets full market value.
Any future property sales should be part of an overall defence plan not just based upon one criteria such as the need to operate large aircraft. The Don would not be the first on my list of sales as there are other city centre properties that would be better located elsewhere and would raise more cash.

What must not be overlooked is the position of the Don to some other key defence assets, it is close to the Glen so flight times to the major training area are short. And it close to the Curragh and the ARW which should not be overlooked. Now the ARW and helicopters could be moved to Gormo but then it would have to be part of a more major reorganisation.

[DeV]

Retain Bal for rotary wing and secure VIP movements.
Just move the rest of operational flying to Shannon.

The DF would lose Bal in that case as no justification for retention.

Those flights would have to go to Dublin Airport or Weston (which isn’t 24/7)