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No Role for the Air Corps says Minister for Defence in SAR

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  • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    Genuinely, how long would it take to ramp up from scratch to a competent SAR outfit? Generate manpower, airframes, stores, training, infrastructure,etc,etc from a clean sheet, when the organisational memory of actual SAR is gone? I'd reckon a minimum of 2 years and that's assuming everything goes well. That's in the face of a military bureaucracy and the DoD mentality. With the best will in the world, it'd be an uphill struggle from the off, at a time when the DF is facing plenty of other struggles to do their duty as the State requires. I'd bet you anything that the Military hierarchy and the DoD hierarchy would regard an AC punt at SAR as an expensive,unwanted solo run.
    Careful now, lest you draw the ire of those pushing this from within. (seems to be many current and past AC senior officers pushing this, for some reason). Chris Reynolds has been slapped down on twitter many times for expressing similar opinions. What would he know though, he's just head of the Coasties. He's not a pilot.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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    • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

      Careful now, lest you draw the ire of those pushing this from within. (seems to be many current and past AC senior officers pushing this, for some reason). Chris Reynolds has been slapped down on twitter many times for expressing similar opinions. What would he know though, he's just head of the Coasties. He's not a pilot.
      He was an NS officer who appears to be very critical of the AC past ops .... considering he should know that the DF have to fight for absolutely everything (and often not receive it)

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DeV View Post

        He was an NS officer who appears to be very critical of the AC past ops .... considering he should know that the DF have to fight for absolutely everything (and often not receive it)
        Could be he knows how it will end, based on his own experience in the DF.
        German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
        German 2: Private? I am a general!
        German 1: That is the bad news.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

          Could be he knows how it will end, based on his own experience in the DF.
          Yes but he blames AC (not DoD and Government for not putting sufficient resources in place)

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          • then that just disintegrates to capbadge warfare,which is pointless.

            Comment


            • Bit of fuss about this article this morning, but its behind a paywall.
              Awarding part of search and rescue contract to Irish Air Corps ‘will end in tears’ | Business Post
              German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
              German 2: Private? I am a general!
              German 1: That is the bad news.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                Bit of fuss about this article this morning, but its behind a paywall.
                Awarding part of search and rescue contract to Irish Air Corps ‘will end in tears’ | Business Post
                How could you possibly have a SAR system that only serves the East Coast? Would an AC SAR heli refuse to attend a scene just around the corner from Hook Head or off Kinsale? Stupid idea. Militaries have built in costs and behaviours that civvies don't have in their oirganisations,which means that civvy organisations are inherently leaner and more efficient. You look at the Garda heli as a prime example. They got away from military maintenance as soon as they could credibly get shot of it, because it was too slow, too inefficient,too tied to military practises/timing/manpower habits and quite frankly, they'd get rid of any connection to the AC if they thought they'd get away with it. Rory O'Connor is a bright guy,very clever and capable but this is not one of his shinier moments,trying to justify how to run SAR with two teams, two budgets, two wildly different philosophies and a firewall of bureaucracies to deal with.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post

                  How could you possibly have a SAR system that only serves the East Coast? Would an AC SAR heli refuse to attend a scene just around the corner from Hook Head or off Kinsale? Stupid idea. Militaries have built in costs and behaviours that civvies don't have in their oirganisations,which means that civvy organisations are inherently leaner and more efficient. You look at the Garda heli as a prime example. They got away from military maintenance as soon as they could credibly get shot of it, because it was too slow, too inefficient,too tied to military practises/timing/manpower habits and quite frankly, they'd get rid of any connection to the AC if they thought they'd get away with it. Rory O'Connor is a bright guy,very clever and capable but this is not one of his shinier moments,trying to justify how to run SAR with two teams, two budgets, two wildly different philosophies and a firewall of bureaucracies to deal with.
                  The major difference is a 300 page business case spelling out the additional resources required

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                  • Additional is a nice word. It's inoffensive so the responsible civil servant can ignore it. Every spare Euro is going on Covid so new toys for the Don are far, far down the priority list. It would take years to regenerate a SAR set up, as the old institutional knowledge is gone. It's not just as simple as handing out Type ratings to all comers. They have got the PC12s so now it's the Army's turn or the Navy's turn to stick their hand in the lucky dip.

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                    • I would have no problem with the AC not having anything to do with civil SAR when ICG did the job themselves, but they don't. Instead they farm it out to a profit making corporation, one which has to have a RoI of 10-15%. True they do rely on the RNLI the majority of surface rescues but as we all know the RNLI is no-profit and crewed by volunteers!. Does it take time to build up such a competence, yes but it is not as long as some people think and there are many ways to speed such training and competence building, if the will is there. Unfortunately the will has not been there and no-one has.

                      If the AC was to regain a SAR function then a training agreement with an organization such as the USCG or SASEMAR could have been organized, why reinvent the wheel. But of course the biggest issue would not be training or even buying the equipment it would be getting the number of pilots, winchmen etc to crew the service 24/7/365. That might be a challenge which a ICG unit would have an easier time than the AC.

                      But Is SAR relevant for a military organization? Well how did SA come about, it came about with the need for militaries to rescue downed pilots first with flying boats & fast rescue craft, later with helicopters. Post WW2 as this was seen as something useful for the civil area most SAR forces had their remit expanded to cover this. Some nations led by the UK seem to have forgotten that part of the war fighting capability, it must be nice for RAF pilots knowing that if they are shot-down over the sea no-one will come to rescue you! But as we don't have any fighters this should not be an issue for us!

                      However not all pilots get shot down over the sea so the US developed CSAR, but the most recent development is that CSAR has expanded well beyond the rescue of pilots. In most recent conflicts CSAR has been around the rescue of any wounded. In the majority of cases this has been provided by the USAF but as other nations undertake more independent operations they begin to develop more and more CSAR. For operations such as that in Mali the provision of a helicopter rescue capability is essential. But that usually relies on the use of medium lift helicopters in this role, something we do not have although the Italians have HH139M in this role.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                        Bit of fuss about this article this morning, but its behind a paywall.
                        Awarding part of search and rescue contract to Irish Air Corps ‘will end in tears’ | Business Post
                        Click image for larger version

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                        German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
                        German 2: Private? I am a general!
                        German 1: That is the bad news.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by DeV View Post

                          The major difference is a 300 page business case spelling out the additional resources required
                          where can the 300 page business case be read?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post

                            where can the 300 page business case be read?
                            No idea

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                              But Is SAR relevant for a military organization? Well how did SA come about, it came about with the need for militaries to rescue downed pilots first with flying boats & fast rescue craft, later with helicopters. Post WW2 as this was seen as something useful for the civil area most SAR forces had their remit expanded to cover this. Some nations led by the UK seem to have forgotten that part of the war fighting capability, it must be nice for RAF pilots knowing that if they are shot-down over the sea no-one will come to rescue you! But as we don't have any fighters this should not be an issue for us!
                              SAR is relevant for a military organisation and the RAF and RN still train for it (202 Sqn).

                              They wouldn't be operating fast jets over water if they didn't have a plan in place to recover downed aircrew.

                              Be that either a RN asset, or one from a coalition partner.

                              The RAF also have SAR assets based at RAF Akrotiri (84 Sqn).

                              If an aircraft ditches in the sea around the UK on a training flight, then HM Coastguard would, as the default SAR authority, be going to pick them up.

                              I'm guessing that the Irish Air Corps still train in this discipline also, even though the SAR assets in Ireland are operated by the Coastguard?

                              If so, I believe that will be as a separate military function, or for use in a time of national emergency.


                              'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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                              • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post

                                where can the 300 page business case be read?
                                The same place as the CHC et al proposals can be read.

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