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No Role for the Air Corps says Minister for Defence in SAR

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  • #76
    Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Well the head of the Coast Guard (ex NS) currently Head of Misson EUCAPSOM had an interesting take on this today.

    At 2 hours notice (which is what the Nimrod was at)

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
      Well the head of the Coast Guard (ex NS) currently Head of Misson EUCAPSOM had an interesting take on this today.

      This is a bit of a "red herring", if the IAC were to have the chance to do it for 2 years, then they would have to be able not only to have the additional aircraft available but also the people resources. Getting the aircraft for a 2 year trial would not be an issue (if the money was made available) but building up sufficient personnel for 2 years is not practical. The AC has in any case demonstrated that when called upon to do a 24/7 service it can (and that despite no additional resources been allocated), even if it was hard at times. But should someone insist on a 2 year trial then swap the EAS to CHC and in return the AC take over the Dublin SAR cover. I have no doubt that the AC would be able to do the job.

      Comment


      • #78
        What does:
        1.the Air Corps in particular,
        2. the wider DF in general
        3. or indeed the country

        gain from having SAR done by the Air Corps?

        "Because we used to do it" is not a good enough answer, imho.
        'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
        'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
        Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
        He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
        http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
          This is a bit of a "red herring", if the IAC were to have the chance to do it for 2 years, then they would have to be able not only to have the additional aircraft available but also the people resources. Getting the aircraft for a 2 year trial would not be an issue (if the money was made available) but building up sufficient personnel for 2 years is not practical. The AC has in any case demonstrated that when called upon to do a 24/7 service it can (and that despite no additional resources been allocated), even if it was hard at times. But should someone insist on a 2 year trial then swap the EAS to CHC and in return the AC take over the Dublin SAR cover. I have no doubt that the AC would be able to do the job.

          The AC has never been able to guarantee availability for anything 24/7 that’s the point (GASU and EAS being the exceptions)

          They have never been “declared” assets and have only have been put on an “as available” basis (and that includes SAR at Finner, Baldonnel, Finner and Waterford when those detachments were operating).

          GASU has its own establishment that I assume is kept up to strength.
          EASU is only able to operate because they can call on every type rates AW139 pilot (including Lt Col Wing Commanders) and even then had to go offline.

          It would probably take at least a year to get AC pilots up to the right level of hours on type that they could act as Pilot in Command on a S92.

          The only way for the AC to take up any job would be given more resources (strength and establishment) and he given time to build hours and experience before starting the service.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by DeV View Post
            The AC has never been able to guarantee availability for anything 24/7 that’s the point (GASU and EAS being the exceptions)

            They have never been “declared” assets and have only have been put on an “as available” basis (and that includes SAR at Finner, Baldonnel, Finner and Waterford when those detachments were operating).

            GASU has its own establishment that I assume is kept up to strength.
            EASU is only able to operate because they can call on every type rates AW139 pilot (including Lt Col Wing Commanders) and even then had to go offline.

            It would probably take at least a year to get AC pilots up to the right level of hours on type that they could act as Pilot in Command on a S92.

            The only way for the AC to take up any job would be given more resources (strength and establishment) and he given time to build hours and experience before starting the service.
            I will say again, as it seems I was not clear, I do not believe that the AC could tomorrow take up the SAR role due to the lack of personnel. What I did say however as proved b the operation of EAS (which they have to do without any uplifts of equipment or establishment) proves that the AC is capable of organising and running a 24-hr service. It has not been easy or smooth due to that lack of resource uplift.

            My suggestion to swap for a year or two was just that, CHC deploy a S-92 to cover the EAS mission and the AC replace the Dublin SAR with an AW-139. The AW-139's have winches, FLIR and flotation devices that allow them to operate over water. Initially the AW-139 could carry a CHC winchman if needed. It is about providing a possible way to answer the comments from Chris Reynolds.

            Naturally if the decision was then taken to give the AC the SAR portfolio then naturally crew need to be trained and equipment sourced.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
              What does:
              1.the Air Corps in particular,
              2. the wider DF in general
              3. or indeed the country

              gain from having SAR done by the Air Corps?

              "Because we used to do it" is not a good enough answer, imho.
              These answers are only for the Q3:
              - A private company such as CHC can cease business, it can go bust as many though a few years ago.
              - A private company need to make a profit typical by having a mark-up of 10-15% above the cost of the service.
              - The assets provided by the contract can only ever be used for the purposes in that contract. If anything other than SAR is included it must e paid for up front (fire fighting, EAS etc)

              For the Q1 & Q2:
              - The AC providing an essential service for the nation improves the standing of the DF's with the general public.

              Now to turn the question around: what does the State get by having a private company provide an essential "blue light" service?
              And if it works so well for SAR should it not contract out all similar "blue light" services such as the ambulance and fire brigade services?

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                I will say again, as it seems I was not clear, I do not believe that the AC could tomorrow take up the SAR role due to the lack of personnel. What I did say however as proved b the operation of EAS (which they have to do without any uplifts of equipment or establishment) proves that the AC is capable of organising and running a 24-hr service. It has not been easy or smooth due to that lack of resource uplift.

                My suggestion to swap for a year or two was just that, CHC deploy a S-92 to cover the EAS mission and the AC replace the Dublin SAR with an AW-139. The AW-139's have winches, FLIR and flotation devices that allow them to operate over water. Initially the AW-139 could carry a CHC winchman if needed. It is about providing a possible way to answer the comments from Chris Reynolds.

                Naturally if the decision was then taken to give the AC the SAR portfolio then naturally crew need to be trained and equipment sourced.
                EAS is daylight only not 24/7 and only possible by being able to call on all AC rotary wing type qualified pilots.

                It would require EAS to be suspended along with the vast majority of rotary wing ops.

                The strength is the number of people they physically have, the establishment is how many they are supposed to have. The establishment doesn’t allow for 1 heli 24/7, it doesn’t even allow for permanent detachment of 1 for daylight ops.

                A medium lift & range heli is required due to the amount of casualties it may have to uplift and the fact that it may need to deploy to the West Coast.




                Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                These answers are only for the Q3:
                - A private company such as CHC can cease business, it can go bust as many though a few years ago.
                - A private company need to make a profit typical by having a mark-up of 10-15% above the cost of the service.
                - The assets provided by the contract can only ever be used for the purposes in that contract. If anything other than SAR is included it must e paid for up front (fire fighting, EAS etc)

                For the Q1 & Q2:
                - The AC providing an essential service for the nation improves the standing of the DF's with the general public.

                Now to turn the question around: what does the State get by having a private company provide an essential "blue light" service?
                And if it works so well for SAR should it not contract out all similar "blue light" services such as the ambulance and fire brigade services?
                The contract does allow for various other taskings

                These aircraft respond to emergencies at sea, inland waterways, offshore islands and mountains of Ireland (32 counties).

                They can also be used for assistance in flooding, major inland emergencies, intra-hospital transfers, pollution, and aerial surveillance during daylight hours, lifting and passenger operations and other operations as authorised by the Coast Guard within appropriate regulations.

                The Coast Guard can contract specialised aerial surveillance or dispersant spraying aircraft at short notice internationally.

                Helicopter tasks include:

                the location of marine and aviation incident survivors by homing onto aviation and marine radio distress transmissions, by guidance from other agencies, and by visual, electronic and electro-optical search
                the evacuation of survivors from the sea, and medical evacuees from all manner of vessels including high-sided passenger and cargo vessels and from the islands
                the evacuation of personnel from ships facing potential disaster
                search and or rescue in mountainous areas, caves, rivers, lakes and waterways
                the transport of offshore fire-fighters (MFRTs) or ambulance teams (MARTs) and their equipment following a request for assistance
                the provision of safety cover for other search and rescue units including other Marine Emergency Service helicopters
                pollution, casualty and salvage inspections and surveillance and the transport of associated personnel and equipment
                inter-agency training in all relevant aspects of the primary role
                onshore emergency medical service, including evacuation and air ambulance tasks
                relief of the islands and of areas suffering from flooding or deep snow
                The secondary roles of the helicopter are:

                the exercise of the primary search, rescue and evacuation roles in adjacent search and rescue regions
                assistance to onshore emergency services, such as in the evacuation of high-rise buildings
                public safety awareness displays and demonstrations
                providing helicopter expertise for seminars and training courses

                Comment


                • #83
                  Ambulances are not a fair comparison as the State relies extensively on private and public ambulances.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by DeV View Post
                    EAS is daylight only not 24/7 and only possible by being able to call on all AC rotary wing type qualified pilots.

                    It would require EAS to be suspended along with the vast majority of rotary wing ops.

                    The strength is the number of people they physically have, the establishment is how many they are supposed to have. The establishment doesn’t allow for 1 heli 24/7, it doesn’t even allow for permanent detachment of 1 for daylight ops.

                    A medium lift & range heli is required due to the amount of casualties it may have to uplift and the fact that it may need to deploy to the West Coast.






                    The contract does allow for various other taskings
                    Why is it better for the State to have an essential "Blue Light" service provided by a "for profit" private company?

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                      Why is it better for the State to have an essential "Blue Light" service provided by a "for profit" private company?
                      I didn’t say that I said it is not possible for the AC to do it

                      They don’t have the personnel and won’t have without a major increase in establishment and strength
                      They don’t have suitable aircraft
                      They don’t have the budget
                      And DoD are involved

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by DeV View Post
                        I didn’t say that I said it is not possible for the AC to do it

                        They don’t have the personnel and won’t have without a major increase in establishment and strength
                        They don’t have suitable aircraft
                        They don’t have the budget
                        And DoD are involved
                        And all based at one location in the east of the country .
                        Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Same as back in the 80s, when everyone on the west coast was screaming for a 24 hour service on the west coast.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by DeV View Post
                            I didn’t say that I said it is not possible for the AC to do it

                            They don’t have the personnel and won’t have without a major increase in establishment and strength
                            They don’t have suitable aircraft
                            They don’t have the budget
                            And DoD are involved
                            That are all arguments as to why the AC should not do SAR but it does not answer my question which was:
                            "Why is it better for the State to have an essential "Blue Light" service provided by a "for profit" private company?"

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                              That are all arguments as to why the AC should not do SAR but it does not answer my question which was:
                              "Why is it better for the State to have an essential "Blue Light" service provided by a "for profit" private company?"
                              It isn't. The state should fund ,equip and provide for a proper Irish Coast Guard SAR heli service.With the personnel being employees of the state and the Airframes being state assets. The AC should NOT fill that role as it diverts scare resources away from it's primary mission. The problem is that despite the state being well able to spend money on white elephants on a yearly basis it seems to have a "I want my cake( Taxpayers money) and to eat it (capital assets)". IE the State WANTS a SAR service but is too cheap to buy the equipment and set up the service properly(Not contracted out). Result?. Dump it on the AC for decades as a way of getting the resource on the cheap with the side effect being that some top brass see this task as their sole raison d'etre.

                              If penny pinching is the Governments sole focus then god help us if we go back to having a hard border in January. I would love to see where the DF is going to get the Helis it will inevitably need if they are all tied up on SAR duties 24/7.Those bleating about the AC taking back SAR for nostalgic reasons seem to be conveniently skipping over that harsh reality.Anybody remember Colemans Island????
                              "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                                That are all arguments as to why the AC should not do SAR but it does not answer my question which was:
                                "Why is it better for the State to have an essential "Blue Light" service provided by a "for profit" private company?"
                                Depends if you are sitting on the side of a cliff face with a broken leg or 100nm off the coast in a sinking vessel and you want a helicopter that will actually be guaranteed to turn up or not.

                                It also depends if the population continues to want to have EAS.

                                It also depends on if the State needs to be able to deploy forces operational quickly on island operationally or in training via helicopter.

                                Why did AC lose SAR because the State was unwilling to provide the necessary aircraft or level of personnel required to guarantee the service!
                                Last edited by DeV; 1 November 2020, 13:49.

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