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No Role for the Air Corps says Minister for Defence in SAR

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  • #91
    The argument seems to be not that the State doesn’t need a SAR or EAS (or indeed MATS), but which state asset is best placed to provide it. I would say that it’s time to stop viewing the Air Corps as the be-all, end-all, and above all cheap option.

    Arguments about raising the profile of the Air Corps with the public are smoke and mirrors. The DF has been doing this service for many years, with such a resultant raise in its profile that the DoD can block purchase of a cut-price P12 using the argument “There is not enough Hanger Space” without anyone calling BS or the public caring. It’s probably time to stop chasing that particular rabbit.
    Last edited by Flamingo; 1 November 2020, 15:11.
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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    • #92
      https://forum.irishmilitaryonline.co...aft-for-rescue

      AC haven’t been able to provide it a lot too

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      • #93
        Originally posted by DeV View Post
        https://forum.irishmilitaryonline.co...aft-for-rescue

        AC haven’t been able to provide it a lot too
        Dog in the manger?
        If the CASA is unable to operate 24 hr because of shortage of ATC, then it should be moved somewhere with 24 hr ATC, or otherwise not declare as an asset.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
          Dog in the manger?
          If the CASA is unable to operate 24 hr because of shortage of ATC, then it should be moved somewhere with 24 hr ATC, or otherwise not declare as an asset.
          ATC is one issue (since solved)

          But the Sqn will also need enough aircrew and tech personnel (who don’t have other duties) to have an aircraft available 24/7 (at 1-2 hours notice). Even if they had all the personnel the establishment says they should they aren’t resourced for it. If they have already flown a long maritime patrol in the 24 hour duty period and a top cover mission is requested they may need to turn it down as it would push them over safe limits.

          Even if on call at home, travel time, sleeping/time to wake up etc all have to factored in.

          Realistic you may need a 12 hour roster and that possibly means even more personnel.

          It’s doable but only if resourced

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          • #95
            The military system has it's own built-in trip ups; promotion, courses, postings, other duties and so on (and that's just on a personnel handling basis) that get in the way of a true 24 hr system. Like I said before, the old UK Mil SAR system worked because it effectively ran itself seperately from the bulk of the RAF combat arm. People only stepped outside of it to go on courses. Civvy SAR systems don't require it's techs to go to the Curragh for 16 weeks to learn how to conduct "platoon in attack" so that they can put up a Corporal's stripes. When techs or pilots in civvy street go on courses, they are replaced. First of all because the situation requires it and secondly, because the law often requires it. The IAA are very big on minimum manning levels and civvy firms are not allowed to operate below them...Unfortunately, the AC is so short of manpower that when a man or woman goes on a course, they are often not replaced and the system is left short. That's not confined to the AC. Army workshops are all short of their establishments for techs and post holders. The Naval Service situation is equally well known.

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            • #96
              If CHC operate SAR then surely it should provide its own Top Cover 24/7, I know they use their own Helicopters at times to do it then it should of been made a part of the Contract and leave the Air Corp out of it altogether.

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              • #97
                So is Coveney considering a change to a degree?
                https://www.irishtimes.com/news/poli...ract-1.4412481
                He agreed with the appraisal and said “I do not see the Air Corps taking full responsibility for SAR services in Ireland’s search and rescue domain.

                “However, I would like to explore further the option of the Air Corps providing some element of the SAR aviation service, given its historical role in this area.”

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                  The military system has it's own built-in trip ups; promotion, courses, postings, other duties and so on (and that's just on a personnel handling basis) that get in the way of a true 24 hr system. Like I said before, the old UK Mil SAR system worked because it effectively ran itself seperately from the bulk of the RAF combat arm. People only stepped outside of it to go on courses. Civvy SAR systems don't require it's techs to go to the Curragh for 16 weeks to learn how to conduct "platoon in attack" so that they can put up a Corporal's stripes. When techs or pilots in civvy street go on courses, they are replaced. First of all because the situation requires it and secondly, because the law often requires it. The IAA are very big on minimum manning levels and civvy firms are not allowed to operate below them...Unfortunately, the AC is so short of manpower that when a man or woman goes on a course, they are often not replaced and the system is left short. That's not confined to the AC. Army workshops are all short of their establishments for techs and post holders. The Naval Service situation is equally well known.
                  If the AC is ever to operate tactically (bearing in mind that AC personnel can fill line infantry appointments overseas and should it ever be required they may need to defend Baldonnel or a FARP) every recruit/apprentice/cadet needs probably up to Pln level tactics.

                  But there will be a lot in some course that they would never need. The AC is a small organisation so running bespoken AC career courses will be more problematic the higher up the ranks you go (eg you could have 3 students for a AC C&S Cse every 3 years or SNCOs Cse.

                  So maybe they should complete only modules of DF courses (for arguments sake MOI block from PNCOs) and add specific AC modules..... could do some elements (or whole Cses) with RAF?

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                    So is Coveney considering a change to a degree?
                    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/poli...ract-1.4412481
                    What is being mentioned in some circles is taking the East coast SAR, where a AW139 would be "adequate" or Fixed wing Top Cover, which can be done by the Lear, if necessary.
                    How realistic either of these ideas are is open to debate.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                      What is being mentioned in some circles is taking the East coast SAR, where a AW139 would be "adequate" or Fixed wing Top Cover, which can be done by the Lear, if necessary.
                      How realistic either of these ideas are is open to debate.
                      Some have said AW139 is used elsewhere for SAR so why not here

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                      • Irish Times 18/11/20: Minister says steering group ruled out State assuming full responsibility for service

                        Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                        He agreed with the appraisal and said “I do not see the Air Corps taking full responsibility for SAR services in Ireland’s search and rescue domain.

                        “However, I would like to explore further the option of the Air Corps providing some element of the SAR aviation service, given its historical role in this area.”
                        Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                        So is Coveney considering a change to a degree?
                        This could actually be a lot more encouraging than it at first appears.

                        Funding for SAR comes from many different government departments and agencies, be assured that every single one of them wants to demonstrate to internal and external stake-holders that they're getting exceptional value for money.

                        Correct me if I leave one or more out; but current SAR/Helo EMS funding comes from DoT, IRCG, DoE, DoH, HSE, NAS, private and public health insurers.

                        They have the budget allocations, they pay for the services, they want to feel that they have an appropriate degree of influence over how the service is delivered.

                        The past is another country, but in that country nobody was happy about how SAR/HEMS were funded or provided.

                        I believe that there is an opportunity, now, to draw a line under all of that.


                        The price will be the yielding of significant control; an end to inter-service rivalries, the ring-fencing of resources towards what are essentially non-military roles, and a substantial investment of faith in, through, and across several government departments and agencies. Not least by the Air Corps itself.

                        There will be funding from all of the above mentioned departments and agencies, and more, I'll come to that in a minute. But in return they will want representation, and a tangible degree of control, on an inter-departmental and inter-agency committee that is actually going to contract the service on behalf of the government.

                        The Department of Foreign Affairs will be represented, and there's worse, the Army and Navy too. Contributors get seats. These three will get representation because a major objective of the national SAR/HEMS programme will be to develop a modest, internationally deployable, MEDIVAC capability.

                        The Helos will be grey. Most likely not new builds. Essentially civilian, maritime, and suitably equipped for SAR/HEMS. They will carry the roundel. At best the permanent lettering will read Defence Forces Ireland, at worst Government of Ireland and a list of sub-funding entities as long as your arm. Day glow semi-permanent vinyl schemes will be applied to provide appropriate visibility for the aircraft in their role and for the funding agencies in theirs'. At least two in yellow and green for the Ambulance Service, the balance most likely in Orange for the Coast Guard. All seven to eight aircraft will be, in practical terms identical, and identically equipped. On international deployment the day glow vinyl will be removed to be replaced with white UN markings, or whatever else may be appropriate.

                        Air Corps will provide flight crew, physical hosting, ground personnel, line support functions, and perhaps paramedics. Army and Navy personnel may, likely will be, seconded in modest numbers across all operational roles. NAS and IRCG personnel are likely to feature, at least as paramedics.


                        This is going to be a substantial test of the Air Corps' ability to operate successfully and with efficiency, in both political and operational realms, as a fully-fledged [excuse me] and independent branch of the Defence Forces.


                        There are bigger future roles already on the horizon; from greatly expanded airlift capabilities, to national ground-based air defence, to air-policing interception. The excellence with which the Air Corps executes the task immediately before it will; entirely reasonably, encourage or dissuade governments in placing further confidence in the junior independent branch of our Defence Forces.

                        Discuss...
                        Last edited by The Usual Suspect; 18 November 2020, 21:20.

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                        • ah lads this is a fking Irish times article now. WTF is going on why the fk is an off the cuff being thrown around with delirium I swear to fk
                          "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                          "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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                          • Loathe it or tolerate it, or both, it's the political process that SAR provision is going to be decided through.

                            It very likely represents an intention, at least, to make an offer of first refusal. I think a genuine one.

                            If the AC don't seize this with both hands when it comes, the next opportunity (at least regarding SAR/EMS) is going to be a lot less attractive, if it comes at all.

                            Politicians will say.. 'but we tried, couldn't make it work.' Long faces.

                            Then back to private contract via the Coast Guard.

                            Opportunities to develop organic MEDIVAC for peacekeeping ops would be minimal.

                            Best option would probably be more courses in Georgia (USA), if anything at all.
                            Last edited by The Usual Suspect; 18 November 2020, 23:17.

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                            • ah lads this is crap peddled to keep people onside . DOD dont' pay for SAR . Anyway I'll step out of this but its counterproductive for the entire force to go anywhere near it in my view.
                              "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                              "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                              Comment


                              • What’s the bets they will say AC aircrew can do exchanges or something.... and then a mass exodus of AC aircrew to the contractor

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