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No Role for the Air Corps says Minister for Defence in SAR

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  • Originally posted by The Usual Suspect View Post

    Discuss...
    Lay off the wacky stuff would be the first item on the agenda.

    The AC will, at best, he given a token involvement (a nice cushy east coast operation would be ideal) but it will be at the expense of EAS, GASU or both.

    And it will reset the clock once again on military aviation operations.

    Back to square one. Zero support to the army.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by trellheim View Post
      ah lads this is a fking Irish times article now. WTF is going on why the fk is an off the cuff being thrown around with delirium I swear to fk
      It is no different to when Varadkar made a comment about airlift and €10million.

      People on here and elsewhere were wetting themselves at the prospect.

      Low and behold, several months later, the conversation has gone away.

      Politicians make throwaway remarks all the time and people always take it hook, line and sinker.

      It's called throwing the dog a bone. It shuts him up and stops him bothering you for a while.

      Comment


      • It's called throwing the dog a bone.
        THANK YOU I could not remember the phrase. "Let them eat cake" didn't seem to fit.
        "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

        "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by trellheim View Post
          THANK YOU I could not remember the phrase. "Let them eat cake" didn't seem to fit.
          When you break it down. Some Shinner asked a PQ and was given a vague non commital response by the serving Min for Foreign Affairs (& Defence).

          In other words - "Go away and don't be annoying me"

          Comment


          • Detecting a faint tinge of cynicism on this thread..



            Examiner 18/11/20: .. the department is not going to be the ones assessing those who tender for this contract. A group of experts will do that..

            €700m from civilian budget over ten years.

            Decision makers are trying to engineer a way to give the vast bulk of it to the Air Corps, they just want to be assured that they won't regret it.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Chuck View Post
              Lay off the wacky stuff would be the first item on the agenda.

              The AC will, at best, he given a token involvement (a nice cushy east coast operation would be ideal) but it will be at the expense of EAS, GASU or both.

              And it will reset the clock once again on military aviation operations.

              Back to square one. Zero support to the army.
              You are not wrong, without a lot of extra spending on equipment and personal I can't see the Air Corps being capable of what should be it's primary function: being part of the defence force...
              "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
              Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
              Illegitimi non carborundum

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Turkey View Post
                You are not wrong, without a lot of extra spending on equipment and personal I can't see the Air Corps being capable of what should be it's primary function: being part of the defence force...
                And it will take years for new aircraft to be delivered (unless available second hand or like PC12) and to recrui, train and build experience of personnel

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Turkey View Post
                  You are not wrong, without a lot of extra spending on equipment and personal I can't see the Air Corps being capable of what should be it's primary function: being part of the defence force...
                  I know I will get a lot of stick for this but here goes.

                  I would agree if we had a proper defence force dedicated to the defence of the nation but the sad fact is we do not:
                  We have a Naval Service which primarily does fishery protection (civil role) and has no capability to monitor what happens in the air above or under the sea below. No vessel is equipped to engage other "warships" and all lack any form of CIWS or other protections systems.
                  We have an Army more suited to fighting a WWI era action, not only does it lack sufficient modern AFV's but there are not even enough trucks to transport all the troops.
                  We have an Air Corps which cannot even monitor, let alone police the airspace above the nation. It has some helicopter lift capability but it would struggle to lift more than a platoon of troops.
                  If we were to remove all the civilian roles done by the DF's there wold be little left. And do not think for a second that this would mean more time for training etc it would not. What it would mean is deeper reductions, take away fishery protection and you take away the need for 8 ships in the NS.

                  The DF's have always been the emergency "gap filler" for the state: firemen on strike, call the Army, bin-men on strike, call the Army, local council not able to cope with flooding, call the Army. To say the AC should not get SAR because it should concentrate on providing troop lift to the Army is BS. They have not being providing SAR cover for more than 10 years and how much troop lift has been available?? Almost every other coastal nation in the EU today has their Armed Forces or some other state agency directly providing SAR, so it can be done.

                  Many will point the finger at the DoD, and while DoD does not help, it may be time that the finger be pointed inward. Why was the 2nd PC-12 declined, not because the DoD blocked but the AC itself gave the DoD the excuse. The issues that would hinder the AC providing a SAR service are mainly internal, but because they are internal the answer could have been found by now if they had the desire.

                  So do I think it would be possible to award the AC the responsibility to provide SAR cover in 2023.....NO, and no amount of funding will change that. It would be easier for the ICG to set-up their own flying wing and provide the service themselves (staffed with a lot of ex-AC). I would prefer that the State owned and operated this emergency service rather than relying on a privately owned company.

                  Comment


                  • It is a common misreading of FOI docs that suggest the AC provided the excuse to the DoD. The DoD decided no 2nd PC12, told GOCAC why they werent getting it, he agreed with their decision (in the absence of any alternative option).
                    Everyone in the DF is trained to adapt to circumstances and tools at hand to achieve the objective. Unfortunately they have been too good at doing more with less.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                      It is a common misreading of FOI docs that suggest the AC provided the excuse to the DoD. The DoD decided no 2nd PC12, told GOCAC why they werent getting it, he agreed with their decision (in the absence of any alternative option).
                      Everyone in the DF is trained to adapt to circumstances and tools at hand to achieve the objective. Unfortunately they have been too good at doing more with less.
                      It was actually a the recommendation from DCOS Sp, not GOC AC.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Chuck View Post
                        It was actually a the recommendation from DCOS Sp, not GOC AC.
                        Apologies, the point remains. FOI thread here. The wording is ambiguous. DCOS agreed with SG plan to buy one. DCOS did not say "we only need one". He agreed with the proposal being put to him by SG and the reasons given by Sec gen to buy one. SSG had his mind made up for one long before running it by DCOS.(19th March, indicated as such, DCOS only involved 24 March when Bus case for one aircraft put forward.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                          I know I will get a lot of stick for this but here goes.

                          I would agree if we had a proper defence force dedicated to the defence of the nation but the sad fact is we do not:
                          We have a Naval Service which primarily does fishery protection (civil role) and has no capability to monitor what happens in the air above or under the sea below. No vessel is equipped to engage other "warships" and all lack any form of CIWS or other protections systems.
                          We have an Army more suited to fighting a WWI era action, not only does it lack sufficient modern AFV's but there are not even enough trucks to transport all the troops.
                          We have an Air Corps which cannot even monitor, let alone police the airspace above the nation. It has some helicopter lift capability but it would struggle to lift more than a platoon of troops.
                          If we were to remove all the civilian roles done by the DF's there wold be little left. And do not think for a second that this would mean more time for training etc it would not. What it would mean is deeper reductions, take away fishery protection and you take away the need for 8 ships in the NS.

                          The DF's have always been the emergency "gap filler" for the state: firemen on strike, call the Army, bin-men on strike, call the Army, local council not able to cope with flooding, call the Army. To say the AC should not get SAR because it should concentrate on providing troop lift to the Army is BS. They have not being providing SAR cover for more than 10 years and how much troop lift has been available?? Almost every other coastal nation in the EU today has their Armed Forces or some other state agency directly providing SAR, so it can be done.

                          Many will point the finger at the DoD, and while DoD does not help, it may be time that the finger be pointed inward. Why was the 2nd PC-12 declined, not because the DoD blocked but the AC itself gave the DoD the excuse. The issues that would hinder the AC providing a SAR service are mainly internal, but because they are internal the answer could have been found by now if they had the desire.

                          So do I think it would be possible to award the AC the responsibility to provide SAR cover in 2023.....NO, and no amount of funding will change that. It would be easier for the ICG to set-up their own flying wing and provide the service themselves (staffed with a lot of ex-AC). I would prefer that the State owned and operated this emergency service rather than relying on a privately owned company.
                          Funny how suddenly once SAR was removed from the AC that a lot of Alouette and Dauphin hours were released for training with the army (as in Tac Ex’s)

                          That carried on with the 139s until the hours were cut around 2008

                          Comment


                          • This is very important as it outlines the requirements (check out the presentation)

                            https://www.gov.ie/en/campaigns/ed65...tion-project/#

                            Comment


                            • In short, the AC can’t meet the IRCG requirements with the exist heli fleet (which would need to be dedicated for IRCG tasking and far in excess of the capabilities AC ever had when doing SAR).

                              Fixed wing would also be problematic without additional personnel (and I don’t think a UK. based aircraft could do it either):

                              It is likely to include Top Cover, aerial surveillance and pollution monitoring.

                              Minimum of one CG Search & Surveillance aircraft on 24 hour stand-by
                              • Minimum 95% availability
                              • Airborne in 30 mins ‘day’, 60 mins ‘night’
                              • On scene anywhere in the Irish EEZ 90 mins after take off.
                              • Enduranceof4/3/2hoursat100/200/300nmROA.
                              • FLIR/EO plus 360 degree search / synthetic aperture radar
                              • Liferaft drop capability
                              • Medevac capability (patient, passenger, 3rd party medic) over a 400 nm range with minimal role change




                              The whole of Government approach could benefit the AC
                              Last edited by DeV; 20 November 2020, 10:46.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                                I know I will get a lot of stick for this but here goes.

                                I would agree if we had a proper defence force dedicated to the defence of the nation but the sad fact is we do not:
                                We have a Naval Service which primarily does fishery protection (civil role) and has no capability to monitor what happens in the air above or under the sea below. No vessel is equipped to engage other "warships" and all lack any form of CIWS or other protections systems.
                                We have an Army more suited to fighting a WWI era action, not only does it lack sufficient modern AFV's but there are not even enough trucks to transport all the troops.
                                We have an Air Corps which cannot even monitor, let alone police the airspace above the nation. It has some helicopter lift capability but it would struggle to lift more than a platoon of troops.
                                If we were to remove all the civilian roles done by the DF's there wold be little left. And do not think for a second that this would mean more time for training etc it would not. What it would mean is deeper reductions, take away fishery protection and you take away the need for 8 ships in the NS.

                                The DF's have always been the emergency "gap filler" for the state: firemen on strike, call the Army, bin-men on strike, call the Army, local council not able to cope with flooding, call the Army. To say the AC should not get SAR because it should concentrate on providing troop lift to the Army is BS. They have not being providing SAR cover for more than 10 years and how much troop lift has been available?? Almost every other coastal nation in the EU today has their Armed Forces or some other state agency directly providing SAR, so it can be done.

                                Many will point the finger at the DoD, and while DoD does not help, it may be time that the finger be pointed inward. Why was the 2nd PC-12 declined, not because the DoD blocked but the AC itself gave the DoD the excuse. The issues that would hinder the AC providing a SAR service are mainly internal, but because they are internal the answer could have been found by now if they had the desire.

                                So do I think it would be possible to award the AC the responsibility to provide SAR cover in 2023.....NO, and no amount of funding will change that. It would be easier for the ICG to set-up their own flying wing and provide the service themselves (staffed with a lot of ex-AC). I would prefer that the State owned and operated this emergency service rather than relying on a privately owned company.
                                I tend to agree and disagree with you at the same time, yes we are undernourished in defence matters, that has always been the case, based on a lie told by a coward called devalara, but we should be building capacity, not strangling it, the helicopters we currently have are for troop transport training, we have about a third the number to be viable and they are not Blackhawks, which for all their many defects are the best machine for there job, but we could cry here about stupidity all day long, but they are there.
                                I disagree with you about the army, the whole world war one thing vanished around Jadotville, that kind of talk is about what I expect from 'arts' students in a pub on a saturday night, as for the NS deficient or not, they represent sizeable and lethal targets to be neutralised in the event of a hostile action, but I do agree with you about the ship's air defence, having being laughed at about that about 15 years ago by 'experts' on this forum.
                                Back to helicopters, and SAR, the Air Corps were withdrawn from SAR after almost 40 years, following the disaster of 248 where four men were sent to their deaths by the wankers in charge, when private contractors were called in the Air Corps were eventually given the opportunity to jump into the real world with new but substandard equipment, and this to a greater extent did, against the odds occur, hell, they even built a gun mount for a 7.62 pop gun, to suppress the Glen's terrorist rabbit population.
                                However when the air ambulance role came up, the Air Corps leadership were out like prostitutes on Lesson street begging for the role, which they were not equipped for and really should have been done by a dedicated new organisation.
                                MY take from that is that if the Air Corps get SAR it will be watered down, ill-equipped, and do nothing for what ever international 'cred' that they have accumulated in the past, SAR is the most demanding flying discipline that there is and approaching it half assed will give us a repeat of Tramore, County Waterford, and possibly add another Black Rock,County Mayo.
                                "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
                                Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
                                Illegitimi non carborundum

                                Comment

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