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No Role for the Air Corps says Minister for Defence in SAR
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Originally posted by na grohmiti View PostWell the head of the Coast Guard (ex NS) currently Head of Misson EUCAPSOM had an interesting take on this today.
Lets have a test. IAC do 2 years with a 24 7 top cover availability at agreed standards at over 95 per cent guaranteed response, proved and audited and then decide if IAC can maintain a real time service. Its not about the IAC its about capacities and standards of excellence
— Chris Reynolds (@Crickie2) October 30, 2020
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What does:
1.the Air Corps in particular,
2. the wider DF in general
3. or indeed the country
gain from having SAR done by the Air Corps?
"Because we used to do it" is not a good enough answer, imho.'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html
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Originally posted by EUFighter View PostThis is a bit of a "red herring", if the IAC were to have the chance to do it for 2 years, then they would have to be able not only to have the additional aircraft available but also the people resources. Getting the aircraft for a 2 year trial would not be an issue (if the money was made available) but building up sufficient personnel for 2 years is not practical. The AC has in any case demonstrated that when called upon to do a 24/7 service it can (and that despite no additional resources been allocated), even if it was hard at times. But should someone insist on a 2 year trial then swap the EAS to CHC and in return the AC take over the Dublin SAR cover. I have no doubt that the AC would be able to do the job.
The AC has never been able to guarantee availability for anything 24/7 that’s the point (GASU and EAS being the exceptions)
They have never been “declared” assets and have only have been put on an “as available” basis (and that includes SAR at Finner, Baldonnel, Finner and Waterford when those detachments were operating).
GASU has its own establishment that I assume is kept up to strength.
EASU is only able to operate because they can call on every type rates AW139 pilot (including Lt Col Wing Commanders) and even then had to go offline.
It would probably take at least a year to get AC pilots up to the right level of hours on type that they could act as Pilot in Command on a S92.
The only way for the AC to take up any job would be given more resources (strength and establishment) and he given time to build hours and experience before starting the service.
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Originally posted by DeV View PostThe AC has never been able to guarantee availability for anything 24/7 that’s the point (GASU and EAS being the exceptions)
They have never been “declared” assets and have only have been put on an “as available” basis (and that includes SAR at Finner, Baldonnel, Finner and Waterford when those detachments were operating).
GASU has its own establishment that I assume is kept up to strength.
EASU is only able to operate because they can call on every type rates AW139 pilot (including Lt Col Wing Commanders) and even then had to go offline.
It would probably take at least a year to get AC pilots up to the right level of hours on type that they could act as Pilot in Command on a S92.
The only way for the AC to take up any job would be given more resources (strength and establishment) and he given time to build hours and experience before starting the service.
My suggestion to swap for a year or two was just that, CHC deploy a S-92 to cover the EAS mission and the AC replace the Dublin SAR with an AW-139. The AW-139's have winches, FLIR and flotation devices that allow them to operate over water. Initially the AW-139 could carry a CHC winchman if needed. It is about providing a possible way to answer the comments from Chris Reynolds.
Naturally if the decision was then taken to give the AC the SAR portfolio then naturally crew need to be trained and equipment sourced.
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Originally posted by Flamingo View PostWhat does:
1.the Air Corps in particular,
2. the wider DF in general
3. or indeed the country
gain from having SAR done by the Air Corps?
"Because we used to do it" is not a good enough answer, imho.
- A private company such as CHC can cease business, it can go bust as many though a few years ago.
- A private company need to make a profit typical by having a mark-up of 10-15% above the cost of the service.
- The assets provided by the contract can only ever be used for the purposes in that contract. If anything other than SAR is included it must e paid for up front (fire fighting, EAS etc)
For the Q1 & Q2:
- The AC providing an essential service for the nation improves the standing of the DF's with the general public.
Now to turn the question around: what does the State get by having a private company provide an essential "blue light" service?
And if it works so well for SAR should it not contract out all similar "blue light" services such as the ambulance and fire brigade services?
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Originally posted by EUFighter View PostI will say again, as it seems I was not clear, I do not believe that the AC could tomorrow take up the SAR role due to the lack of personnel. What I did say however as proved b the operation of EAS (which they have to do without any uplifts of equipment or establishment) proves that the AC is capable of organising and running a 24-hr service. It has not been easy or smooth due to that lack of resource uplift.
My suggestion to swap for a year or two was just that, CHC deploy a S-92 to cover the EAS mission and the AC replace the Dublin SAR with an AW-139. The AW-139's have winches, FLIR and flotation devices that allow them to operate over water. Initially the AW-139 could carry a CHC winchman if needed. It is about providing a possible way to answer the comments from Chris Reynolds.
Naturally if the decision was then taken to give the AC the SAR portfolio then naturally crew need to be trained and equipment sourced.
It would require EAS to be suspended along with the vast majority of rotary wing ops.
The strength is the number of people they physically have, the establishment is how many they are supposed to have. The establishment doesn’t allow for 1 heli 24/7, it doesn’t even allow for permanent detachment of 1 for daylight ops.
A medium lift & range heli is required due to the amount of casualties it may have to uplift and the fact that it may need to deploy to the West Coast.
Originally posted by EUFighter View PostThese answers are only for the Q3:
- A private company such as CHC can cease business, it can go bust as many though a few years ago.
- A private company need to make a profit typical by having a mark-up of 10-15% above the cost of the service.
- The assets provided by the contract can only ever be used for the purposes in that contract. If anything other than SAR is included it must e paid for up front (fire fighting, EAS etc)
For the Q1 & Q2:
- The AC providing an essential service for the nation improves the standing of the DF's with the general public.
Now to turn the question around: what does the State get by having a private company provide an essential "blue light" service?
And if it works so well for SAR should it not contract out all similar "blue light" services such as the ambulance and fire brigade services?
These aircraft respond to emergencies at sea, inland waterways, offshore islands and mountains of Ireland (32 counties).
They can also be used for assistance in flooding, major inland emergencies, intra-hospital transfers, pollution, and aerial surveillance during daylight hours, lifting and passenger operations and other operations as authorised by the Coast Guard within appropriate regulations.
The Coast Guard can contract specialised aerial surveillance or dispersant spraying aircraft at short notice internationally.
Helicopter tasks include:
the location of marine and aviation incident survivors by homing onto aviation and marine radio distress transmissions, by guidance from other agencies, and by visual, electronic and electro-optical search
the evacuation of survivors from the sea, and medical evacuees from all manner of vessels including high-sided passenger and cargo vessels and from the islands
the evacuation of personnel from ships facing potential disaster
search and or rescue in mountainous areas, caves, rivers, lakes and waterways
the transport of offshore fire-fighters (MFRTs) or ambulance teams (MARTs) and their equipment following a request for assistance
the provision of safety cover for other search and rescue units including other Marine Emergency Service helicopters
pollution, casualty and salvage inspections and surveillance and the transport of associated personnel and equipment
inter-agency training in all relevant aspects of the primary role
onshore emergency medical service, including evacuation and air ambulance tasks
relief of the islands and of areas suffering from flooding or deep snow
The secondary roles of the helicopter are:
the exercise of the primary search, rescue and evacuation roles in adjacent search and rescue regions
assistance to onshore emergency services, such as in the evacuation of high-rise buildings
public safety awareness displays and demonstrations
providing helicopter expertise for seminars and training courses
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Originally posted by DeV View PostEAS is daylight only not 24/7 and only possible by being able to call on all AC rotary wing type qualified pilots.
It would require EAS to be suspended along with the vast majority of rotary wing ops.
The strength is the number of people they physically have, the establishment is how many they are supposed to have. The establishment doesn’t allow for 1 heli 24/7, it doesn’t even allow for permanent detachment of 1 for daylight ops.
A medium lift & range heli is required due to the amount of casualties it may have to uplift and the fact that it may need to deploy to the West Coast.
The contract does allow for various other taskings
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Originally posted by EUFighter View PostWhy is it better for the State to have an essential "Blue Light" service provided by a "for profit" private company?
They don’t have the personnel and won’t have without a major increase in establishment and strength
They don’t have suitable aircraft
They don’t have the budget
And DoD are involved
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Originally posted by DeV View PostI didn’t say that I said it is not possible for the AC to do it
They don’t have the personnel and won’t have without a major increase in establishment and strength
They don’t have suitable aircraft
They don’t have the budget
And DoD are involvedDon't spit in my Bouillabaisse .
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Originally posted by DeV View PostI didn’t say that I said it is not possible for the AC to do it
They don’t have the personnel and won’t have without a major increase in establishment and strength
They don’t have suitable aircraft
They don’t have the budget
And DoD are involved
"Why is it better for the State to have an essential "Blue Light" service provided by a "for profit" private company?"
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Originally posted by EUFighter View PostThat are all arguments as to why the AC should not do SAR but it does not answer my question which was:
"Why is it better for the State to have an essential "Blue Light" service provided by a "for profit" private company?"
If penny pinching is the Governments sole focus then god help us if we go back to having a hard border in January. I would love to see where the DF is going to get the Helis it will inevitably need if they are all tied up on SAR duties 24/7.Those bleating about the AC taking back SAR for nostalgic reasons seem to be conveniently skipping over that harsh reality.Anybody remember Colemans Island????"Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.
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Originally posted by EUFighter View PostThat are all arguments as to why the AC should not do SAR but it does not answer my question which was:
"Why is it better for the State to have an essential "Blue Light" service provided by a "for profit" private company?"
It also depends if the population continues to want to have EAS.
It also depends on if the State needs to be able to deploy forces operational quickly on island operationally or in training via helicopter.
Why did AC lose SAR because the State was unwilling to provide the necessary aircraft or level of personnel required to guarantee the service!Last edited by DeV; 1 November 2020, 14:49.
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