Only 2 helis that can carrry a 9 man section?

[andy]

Posted in the news section is the tender details for the 6 new helicopters : -

Two able to carry a section of nine soldiers. (i.e the other 4 cant ! )It says the following are in for the running,

Eurocopter Ec-135
Eurocopter Ec-145
Agusta 109
Sikorsky S-76/Blackhawk.

Cutting the helicopters from 9 to 6 is bad enough, but worse is that only 2 of them can actually carry a 9 man section. The other 4 are going to have limited use!

Meanwhile the minister of defence has again announced the purhase of the PC-9's. The remaining aircraft are expected to be delivered before June

[morpheus]

Cant find it in the news section....

where'd you get this info?

[andy]

Tenders being issued for six new Irish Air Corps helicopters

Tenders being issued for six new Irish Air Corps helicopters
The Irish Independent
9-May-2004
DON LAVERY
*****************************
THE Irish Air Corps is to get six new helicopters in a mix of two types - including two able to carry a section of nine soldiers.

Helicopter manufacturers are eagerly awaiting tenders, expected to be published this week by the Department of Defence which is seeking four light utility and two larger utility helicopters.

The move comes nearly five months after Minister Michael Smith said a new fleet of light utility helicopters would replace the small Alouette, Dauphin and Gazelle aircraft.

With the Air Corps' main responsibility for search and rescue now privatised, the force is looking at providing more support to the army, including air mobility for troops. As a result, the specification for the new aircraft was changed from only one type of helicopter announced by Mr Smith last December.

The defence forces have also seen how vital air mobility is in the context of modern peace keeping, like the volatile situation in Liberia.

Elements of the Irish army battalion there have been able to conduct long-range patrols hundreds of kilometres from base using giant Ukrainian Air Force Mi-26 helicopters to carry their armoured cars and jeeps; Mi-8s to carry troops and Mi-24 gunships to provide "top cover".

Manufacturers expected to be in contention for the order include Eurocopter with its Ec-135 and Ec-145 helicopters; Agusta with its 109 helicopter, and Sikorsky with its S-76 or Blackhawk.

The six new aircraft will replace 15 light helicopters, some of which were bought in 1963.

The new fleet is also expected to be used for surveillance, inshore rescue, medivac, air ambulance, island relief, hospital transfers and training.

Meanwhile, the Air Corps will take delivery, before June, of the last of the eight Pilatus PC-9m training aircraft which have been bought for €60m.

They can be armed with heavy machine guns and rockets and are expected to play a role enforcing an air exclusion zone over Dromoland Castle and Shannon Airport for the President George W Bush visit.

[andy]

I posted this in news but there must have been some error

[begin rant]

The move comes nearly five months after Minister Michael Smith said a new fleet of light utility helicopters would replace the small Alouette, Dauphin and Gazelle aircraft

should that not be ...The move comes after years of stalling, numerous reports, recommendations, and deaths of air crew, a decision was finally arrived at to downsize the current fleet.

The defence forces have also seen how vital air mobility is in the context of modern peace keeping, like the volatile situation in Liberia.

And thats all they are going to see by the looks of this tender... 2 useful heli's for the entire army?:(

[Goldie fish]

Having one heli capable of carrying a full section is still an improvement on the current situation. 4 x LUH plus 2 "troop heli" is still only a beginning. Good to see Blackhawks still in the frame.
Assuming 50% availability though,is still a pitiful situation. Considering the intended roles,i expect the person responsible for tasking these new helis will require previous experience distributing Loaves and fishes among large crowds..

[yooklid]

Typical bullshit Irish political attitude.

"We don't actually need them, so we should just set up enough to train and then we do need them, we'll buy more".

Of course, if we were to ever need them, I doubt any would be available.

[Aidan]

Chances are the aircraft will all come from the one supplier, hence sensible bets would be on an Eurocopter mix. An alternative will be the A109/A139, but its much less likely.

Idealists will be suggsting the EC725 as the larger heli, bet the 'suggestions' about the Ec565* will start soon after ...

*Otherwise known as the Panther, previously known as the Dauphin.

[morpheus]

Just noticed, the tender mentiones the various eurocopter choppers, the augusta etc all LUH's? right?

The only MLH's mentioned are the S-76 and the Blackhawk.

S-76 isnt a military chopper!!!

http://www.eichhorn.ws/assets/images/sikorsky_h76_eagle.jpg

Thats the Sikorsky H-76 eagle.... military version, not one were likely to see though.

If you ask me, this S-76 crap smells of VIP transport... a glorified Missus H Heli. It can transport 12 passengers, would this equate to 9 fully laden troops and a loadmaster? a door gunner? a door gun? ammunition? ARGH!!!

The Blackhawk is probably the ONLY option. and probably the most likely candidate not to be selected.

Would sikorsky even touch an Irish military contract again!???

oh...this all sounds too much like election un-promises

[Aidan]

Relax Morpheus, sounds more like journalistic licence than any sneaky plan to subvert the AC to VIP transport.

Don't see what's so special about the Blackhawk; the NH-90, the Cougar and the A139 can all do exactly the same job. Any of those 4 aircraft would be fine, and the NH-90 is the ideal. And you can forget about the fancy 'theoretical' weapons fit, all Irish helicopters will ever carry will be a MAG.

Trouble is, there are a number of helis that can theoretically carry 9 troops and are definitely not 'proper' MLH, such as the Panther, the AB412EP or the UH-1Y. They may well be contenders. They key issue in a tender document then will be range/weight (or slung load) requirements rather than passenger numbers.

[paul g]

Should remember that initially only 3 Alouette III were bought back in 1963, and GOING BY RECENT PRACTICES, the tender document will probably also have some reference to options for a further purchases.

Personally I hope that whatever's bought for the larger option, that its an NH-90.

[Goldie fish]

Those who remember the details of the last tender process,will remember there were some strange contenders. As well as the S92 and EHI01,Eurocopters CougarII,which was revealed by the media to be nothing more than a "paper helicopter" when it was being evaluated.(A very funny article,cant remember who wrote it,must try to find it,about the portugese experience in trying to deal with eurocopter).
In addition to these mainstream companies we also had Kamov,Kayman, and an Israeli company offering Mi 8s and Mi17s with western avionics fit,and most strangely,and one that made it to the final 4,CHC,who currently operate the SAR contract,offering to lease second hand Medium lift helis,and crews to the air corps.

But this is not a MLH competition by any stretch of the imagination. The speculation by the media(and thats all it is,until the tenders are published) is that 2 of the helis will be required to carry 9 troops,as well as crew.
Many non military types could do this satisfactorily,before we start talking about Blackhawks or NH90s

Bell 430
Bell412
AB139
Dauphin
All the above can carry 9 or more troops

However the current Puma type model,the EC725,is capable of carrying an entire platoon in one lift(28+3)
The NH90 could carry 20 troops
The S92(now known as the H92 Superhawk is similar in size to the above,or larger,but I think it is still patricipating in pre production testing,but has yet to secure military orders,even from the Mighty US military,who are considering the EH101(US101) to replace some of its older types of large heli,such as the Sea Knight,Sea King and CH53...

If it were up to me,i would chose the heli that could lift the most troops in one go..but thats just me..

[John]

The Irish Times

Opinion Thu, Mar 15, 2001

An Irishman's Diary
By KEVIN MYERS

The French company Eurocopter recently proposed its Cougar Mark 2+ for Portuguese search and rescue. Splendid, cried the Portuguese, presumably on the lines of !magnifico. Malheureusement, said Eurocopter, there is, as yet, no manual for the Cougar Mark 2+. That's all right, said the Portuguese. We'll assess your helicopter anyway.


Ah, said Eurocopter. We haven't actually got a Cougar Mark 2+ available yet for testing, but we do have a Cougar Mark 2. And the Portuguese sighed heavily in Portuguese, and said: Look, you haven't got the manual, and you haven't got the helicopter you're trying to sell us, but you have an old helicopter that you're not trying to sell us, and you want us to fly around in the old one imagining that it's the new one, and pretending to assess one helicopter by flying another. Is that right?

Reconsider

Mais oui, declared the Eurocopter bosses - at which point the Portuguese smiled tightly, made their excuses and left. Eurocopter appealed to the Portuguese Minister for Defence, who ordered the assessment committee to reconsider the Eurocopter proposal. You're the boss, said his committee, and six months later Eurocopter were finally back in the contest. But they were still using the old helicopter, which, though it has a similar name, is a radically different machine from the one they were actually trying to sell.

Basically, the new one's the same as the one for testing, muttered Eurocopter, only better.

It's not the same, snarled the Portuguese. For a start, the 2+ has got a different engine, which doesn't even exist yet.

Here! We've got a model of the engine, cried Eurocopter. Look! Imagine this, only 500 times bigger. Vroom, vroom!

It's not just the engine. The Cougar 2+ has different gears, rotors which haven't flown, a different structure, and look, you've got fuel tanks projecting beneath the winch-door, and that'll mean the winch will have to be stuck out far away from the central axis of the helicopter, and the door won't be vertically accessible, and this in a search and rescue helicopter? Absolutely bloody brilliant. Anything else you want to sell us?

A Citroen Xantia, but we haven't one with us. So would you like to try a 1979 DeuxChevaux, one careful lady owner, clock genuine, suspension needs a bit of work, what do you say to 10 million francs?

Exit one Portuguese committee, scowling. The Portuguese report on the Cougar 2+ is a model of terseness. It runs as follows: Proposal for Eurocopter Cougar 2+: Strengths? Nothing to report. Weaknesses? The helicopter does not exist yet.

Acquisition

Which is why the Portuguese will not be buying the Cougar 2+, though Eurocopter's abysmal performance didn't prevent it from accusing the Portuguese of "incompetence and corruption". The Portuguese are now thinking about suing Eurocopter for delaying their helicopter acquisition programme by a year.

Our own evaluation team has been looking for new helicopters to re-equip the Airs Corps. How, I wonder, did Eurocopter make its presentation? Did it say, Look, sorry, our Cougar 2+ isn't ready yet, but the Big Wheel at Eurodisney will give you a really good idea of how it goes up and down, and we haven't made the engine yet, but Francois here can draw it for you, if m'sieur has a pencil and a bit of paper. . ?

The Air Corps options lie between a Sikorsky S92, which is still being developed and which has no orders yet; the EH 101, which is flying with Canada, Italy, the UK and Japan, which the Portuguese evaluers loved and Lisbon is almost certain to order; and, of course, the Cougar 2+, which isn't flying quite yet, but we have a little Airfix kit here, which with a little tube of glue, comme ca, will give m'sieur an excellent impression of its capabilities - perhaps we can discuss these over foie gras and skylarks' tongues at La Tour D'Argent? And finally, there is the tender from Bond Helicopters to supply and maintain either the untried and untested S92 or a version of the Puma, so tried and tested that it is a flying Amstrad. The Bond offer would sideline and perhaps even kill the Air Corps's proud engineering traditions. Is that really what we want?

At which point, I can sense coming over the horizon the purchasing principles which 20 years ago caused us to buy a hibernicised version of the Dauphine, which turned out to be a Swiss penknife of a helicopter: it could and can do just about everything poorly, and virtually nothing well, though the reception of Lyric FM on its radio is rather good if you land on Lyric FM's roof and stick the chopper's aerial directly into the station transmitter.

Cheap options

The EH 101 is the most expensive option. It is also European, which is relevant only if it is good. As the Portuguese have discovered, it is the best. But what about cost? Well, we've tried cheap options before, and they've always ended in tears. Moreover, for both the S92 and the Cougar 2+, Ireland would almost certainly be the launch customer. In other words, whatever problems they have, we'll be the first to discover them, probably the hard and costly way. On the other hand, the EH 101, already in service across the world, looks set to equip search and rescue operations the length of the Atlantic seaboard of Europe from the Arctic Circle to the Straits of Gibraltar, excluding France. Does not a common European solution to a common European problem make common European sense?

© The Irish Times

[ForkTailedDevil]

Could leasing be the way to go? Does away with the initial purchase costs, though you will have to agree the rental package. The USCG lease it Augustas and the Czechs lease their Gripens.The government could enquire as to the ability of EH Industries to lease helicopters.The IAC engineers would learn how to do day to day and basic maintainence and return them to the factory for depot level maintaince.It would be IAC pilots as opposed to those from a company. The Czech have a 10 year lease on their Gripens.Get a similar lease agreement on the EH101s if it can be done and then hand them back at the end of the lease for the newest version or buy them outright after saving up for them.Wonder how many hours is on the airframe life of a 101.You outsource the Coast Guard duties currently, using some leased helicopters shouldn't be too big a jump even if it is a bit of a ding to pride.
(I picked EH101s since they are the best option in my mind)

Rental of S92 could be an option.Get a very short term option on them.Since you would be the launch customer Sikorsky would consider the performance with the IAC of great importance.If they don't work you can tell Sikorsky to stuff them and hand them back rather than being stuck with them.

[fillo]

It makes me laugh we I read these articles "the force is looking at providing more support to the army, including air mobility for troops." But yet we won't be able to conduct a plt strength operation.

[Scorpy]

The 139 can do the same job as the S70? Don't make me laugh! And I think you will find that the 139, S76, EC 135 and 145 are ALL CIVILIAN HELICOPTERS! Hence there will be limited equipment fits for military applications, i.e. no IFF transponder, no door gun mountings, no fastroping installation, no self defence measures, poxy civvie radios (and if military ones are shoehorned in, we end up with the same problems that the dauphin experienced for nearly 20 years). The naive idea that this is leading to an NH90 or EC 725 appearing in Baldonnel in the not too distant future is laughable, once the Corps recieves the LUH (and be under no illusion, 9 troops in the back of any of the LUH contenders will be a struggle barring the S70 or the 412) we can kiss goodbye to MLH. But I do think from what I hear that the papers got the 2 large and 4 small LUH the wrong way around.