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  • AC Transport Capability

    You'll be glad to know you don't have the worst fixed wing transport capability in Europe and can actually beat Finland and several more!!!! I think that will bring you small comfort.
    So we are in better shape than Finland right? I really hope you didn't pay too much for that magazine.

    See Finnish Airforce: http://www.ilmavoimat.fi/index_en.php?id=304

    "When you arise in the morning, think of what a precious privilege it is to be alive - to breathe, to think, to enjoy, to love."


    Marcus Aurelius Roman Emperor (161 to 180 A.D.)

  • #2
    I mean only in terms of transport as it says.Finnish capabilities to operate out of region are down to 2 fairly old Fokkers.One of which is currently used for EW type operation.Your two CASA's, whilst in use for MP could be switched in an emergency and far more capable due to actually having a ramp.
    Si vis pacem para bellum

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    • #3
      FTD how up to date was that report in the magazine. I took the follwing right off the Finnish Defense Forces web page.

      The Learjet 35A/S multi-purpose aircraft is used for marine surveillance, among other things. The aircraft in the photo is fitted with target towing equipment.

      Multi-purpose aircraft

      The use of surveillance and combat command aircraft is increasing. Modern air surveillance radar aircraft are capable of several days of sustained flight.

      Radar surveillance can be undertaken from hundreds of kilometres away, beyond the reach of the opposite side’s weapons. Such aircraft are often complete air surveillance and air activity command centres. Surveillance data and target painting from these aircraft can also be used in land and sea battle command functions. Aircraft systems are also fitted with a variety of electronic warfare devices.

      Airborne air surveillance systems are extremely expensive. In Finland, fixed ground radar installations are used for radar air surveillance.

      Marine surveillance, on the other hand, is augmented with the Learjet multi-purpose aircraft of the Air Force and the Dornier surveillance aircraft of the Frontier Guard.

      "When you arise in the morning, think of what a precious privilege it is to be alive - to breathe, to think, to enjoy, to love."


      Marcus Aurelius Roman Emperor (161 to 180 A.D.)

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      • #4
        I'm only talking cargo and passenger transport by fixed wing aircraft.Thats talking about surveillance aircraft.In the IAC, between the CASAs and bizjets you can move more men and equipment in one go.The CASA's, if they were ever utilised for a transport role are far more flexible than the Finnish Fokkers.I'm at work now so I don't have the report.I finish early Friday so I'll go home and will type up the relevant info for you to explain what I mean.I'll be home in about 5 or 6 hours from now barring some form of disaster and will provide the article then after I have a cuppa, a biscuit and a bitch about how much I hate spending time typing people details into the computer at work.
        Si vis pacem para bellum

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        • #5
          Ok, I'm home.Had a sausage roll, a cuppa and a laugh about the bus driver throwing some thugs of the bus.
          Ok, the precise wording of the start of the article on Finnish transport capability in Air Forces Monthly p45 June issue, written by Perttu Karivalo states that,

          "Within the Finnish Air Force (FAF Ilmavoimat) the Tukilentolaivue (Support Squadron) operates two Fokker F27s in its iventory, one of which serves as a transport aircraft.Fokker F27-100, serial number FF-1, was converted to the Electronic Intelligence role some 15 years ago. A third F27 serial number FF-2, was retired on March 31, 2004 and donated to the aircraft maintainnce school at Pori:It had the oldest version of the Dart engine and spare parts weredifficult to obtain.As a result F27-400M Troopship, serial number FF-3 is now the only transport aircraft in the Finnish Air Force."

          Anybody who has seen an F27 will note that due to its configuration it is best used for troop transport as there is no decent sized cargo door, or cargo compartment for materials.Three Learjets 35A/S exist which are used for photomapping, target towing and Electronic Warfare training duties.They are also used for VIP flights (familiar?).Basically the transport abilities of the two CASA235s in the IAC are better due to the design of their cargo holds and loading ramp that allows bulkier items to be loaded, meaning the IAC has better transport ability than the FAF because of it ability to haul cargo in time of need.
          As a sideline to this the IACs abilities, as I picked up on in the article, are better than Albania,Bosnia(0 transports), Estonia, Latvia, Macedonia, Slovenia, and the Srspska Republic.
          Si vis pacem para bellum

          Comment


          • #6
            AFAIK the Only thing the Casa's have been used to transport is the ARW on Para Training and unfortunately the Body of Sgt, Derek Mooney RIP.

            The CASA is a Recce/Surveillance A/C to say that its a "transport" is not accurate due to the Payload. You could probably carry as much in the Learjet!

            Friends Come and Go, but Enemies accumulate!!

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            • #7
              IAC Casa's

              You aint gettin nuttin into an IAC CN-235, the mission equipment is non-removable.
              There are a few(6/8) airline type seats installed aft of the cockpit, but thats about it. The main use of the ramp is for dropping life rafts, but when the rear bulkhead is removed parachuting can take place(for a very small number of people).

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              • #8
                The mission equipment is in the hold?.I though the FLIR and ESM were more or less part of the planes normal systems, as opposed to taking up space in the hold.I wonder if some form of pallatised sytem is available.This would mean you could disconnect everything et voila a transport.
                Si vis pacem para bellum

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks FTD I have to take my hat of to you. You really do go that extra mile to make sure your facts are clear and concise. :D

                  I was just initially taken aback that the magazine appeared to have been way off the mark on its assesment of the Finnish air force.

                  Actually other than Malta I would have been hard pressed to think of any European country with less military aircraft than Ireland.

                  Ah bus thugs I'd nearly forgotten about those creatures. They still roam about then.

                  "When you arise in the morning, think of what a precious privilege it is to be alive - to breathe, to think, to enjoy, to love."


                  Marcus Aurelius Roman Emperor (161 to 180 A.D.)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Nope!

                    No paletised system! So we just get the Antanov for a day or 2! whenever we need it! Which is Great coz they won't lend it to the Yanks!

                    Useless Fact: Largest thing the Antanov Carried apart from the Russian Space Shuttle was 2 Iarnroid Eireann Engines from Canada to Dublin!

                    Friends Come and Go, but Enemies accumulate!!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The CASA's are configured for maritime work, they have lots of mission-specific eqipment installed & cannot carry much cargo without the removal of this equipment (not something you can do at the drop of a hat).

                      There's also the issue of availability. The CASA's spend the bulk of their time on ops or training, only occasionally are they used for anything else. In contrast to this, the Finns have 1 dedicated transport aircraft available for use.

                      On paper, the AC's two CASA's are more capable than the Finn's single Fokker. In practice, the CASA's are maritime patrol aircraft and do very little transporting.
                      "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

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                      • #12
                        Well thats a bummer.Ah well, looks good on paper.Some of the new system that were to go into the RAF Nimrods were to have a somewhat paltised sytem, so that they could be moved to new martime patrol aircraft when the time came.It also allowed the Nimrods to convert to a secondary trooping role in which they could accomodate 50 troops or so, though that was more of an emergency scenario.Its a pity that some form of removable sytem couldn't have been installed in the CASAs.It bulks up the IACs abilities fairly quickly and with a dgree of cost effectiveness.Ah well, such is the Irish military aquisitions process.
                        Si vis pacem para bellum

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Even a modular equipment fit wouldn't entirely solve the problem. The two CASA's are almost constantly on patrol on training, in fact the AC could do with another one. They wouldn't have the time to carry out transport duties, even if they could.
                          "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

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                          • #14
                            The IAC currently doesn't have a need for a permanently assigned transport anyhow, and I undeerstand that.Having an aircraft that could in an emergency be switched to transport would be useful though and I dont think anyone would argue with that.Of course no current scenario would require the IAC to create a capability to move personel and cargo abroad or return them home by itself, but the development of one could be a necessity for future operations. The concept of a convertable CN235 or similar would be worthwhile investigating in a future aquisitions process in my mind (anyone agree) but having a larger maritme patrol capability in the IAC is of more importance now.
                            Si vis pacem para bellum

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Well, Goldiefish seems to have justifiably split the post so lets state the question for our posters just so we are clear

                              "Does the IAC require it own tactical transport ability in support of military operations?"

                              Well thats the basic question.Points to consider
                              -are the number of missions that a transport would perform suuficient to justify outright purchase of a transport
                              -would the transport aircraft have to be multi-role ie MP etc, to be cost effective
                              -what size of aircraft would be justifiable? CASA 235 or Hercules or something inbetween
                              -secondhand or new?
                              -could the IAC use the transport for commercial purposes to "pay its way" or would this infringe on certain laws?
                              -should we continue to rely on friendly nations for troop transport as oppsed to having our own ability

                              Lets just assume for the purpose of the exercise that money was available for the purchase of an aircraft up to the size of a Hercules and for no other purpose, so should it be used or not?
                              Si vis pacem para bellum

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