I Have a Dream / Vision

[gaff85]

You may think I'm Mad but what do users of this board think to the following arrangement for the Aercorp. Ok, this wont happen over night or maybe would never happen. However we all have dreams/visions of how the Aercorp should be handled.

Prerequisites,
1. Fully manage and support all the SAR helicopters currently used by CHC around Ireland.
2. Have to break the mentality that the Aercorp should only function from Casement
3. Mr Smith has the be given the per-verbal bullet


Move the MATS to Dublin Airport
As Aerlingus are not longer flying commuter aircraft, there is a perfectly usable hanger at Dublin Airport which could accommodate both the G-IV and the LJ45. There will already be a SAR detachment working from Dublin right beside this hanger so "security" should not be an issue. The possibility of a MATS Halo to be purchased so as the Military version flown will not be used by Government official as personal taxis. Also as the G-IV seems to be on its last legs, the possibility of a Bombardier Global Express/Challanger should be looked into as thisowuld also give commanality between the replacemnt for the G-IV and the LJ

Base the Garda Squirrel down in Shannon along side the SAR Halo.

Totally Navelise at least two dauphins for the explicit use of the Navy (Maybe a second vessel is required that can actually handle the dauphin properly)

Move both of the CASA and base then in either Cork or Shannon (Which is would be closer to there area of patrol), Purchase a third Casa 235 or equivalent

All maintance will be carried out as normal in Casement.

All fixed wing / rotor training will be carried out in casement (PC-9M, An order for another 6- 8 would be advisable. Beech Super King Air to be replace by a couple more up to date twin, for basic twin training for the MATS, Maritime To carry out Fixed Wing training and the EC135 or some other Light Halo said the EC-135 as this is already in service with the GASU)

GASU EC-135 / Defender to be based in Baldonnel

Transports, again there will have to be a total re-vamp of the transport currently carried out by the Aercorp.

A possibility is for a couple more defender 4000's to be purchased for the Border / Light recon role or possible the PC-12.

3 -4 Hercules would be required to support over sea operations, possible a couple of lighter transports would be required to serve the new "location" used within Ireland by the Aercorp so day to day duties can be carried out. Possibility of this being a CASA 295 or a C27 Spartan.

Casement should be opened up the Biz Jet traffic much along the lines of Northolt/Brize Norton, all fess would stay within the Aercorp. This would also give the ground/ATC staff a lot more day to day work experience.


Now onto the Army support role.

We are all in agreement that the Aercorp require MLH halo for the purpose of transporting the army in cooperation roles. I also think the Blackhawk would be ideal in this situation, also something a little heavier for over sees missions such as the Chinook, which can carry personal in the halo and equipment slung under neath. I would say that about 3/4 Chinooks for overseas duties and also to cover the training aspect based in Baldonnel. The black hawks number would be decided one it was determined who/what required them, ie would special hawks be required to ferry the ARW around. These would certainly be a different variety to the Halo used to pick-up/drop a company of Soldiers. I also agree that which ever one would be selected that there was inbuilt provision for electronic countermeasures and at least a door mounted 50 cal.

Then there is the Interceptor/Ground Attack "Jets", again these should be farmed out to certain location throughout the Island. Possibly complete the same tender/lease the Czech have carried out for there latest SAAB Grippen, However there would be a big jump from the PC-9M to a full interceptor so something along thelines of the Hawk would also be a requirement.

However that is my penny worth or should I say cent's worth.

So In a nut shell the Prchases that woud be required to carry out this would be as follows

1 Additional CASA235
1 VIP rigged Halo for MATS
3/4 Chinooks
Undetermined number of Blackhawk or equivalent MLH Halo's, Possibly 12 - 15
3 -4 Transport including Light transport for Internal use
A further 6 -8 PC-9M
2 -3 PC-12 or Defenders
6 - Light Training Jets
18 - 24 Air - Air/Air - Ground/ Recon/ AWAC
Replacement for the aging G-IV

[Vmax]

Dream on

[ForkTailedDevil]

Thats a not a great combination.The HALO would be a general waste of a helicopter in IAC service. The Chinooks are probably stretching it a bit for the IAC.I'm not saying they couldn't use them.The question is whether they could make enuff use of them.No more PC-9s are needed.I'll disagree with most of the rest of your dream but I do think your dream of more Defenders under IAC control is a great idea as are most of the MATS recommendations.2 Hercules are probably the max needed, though 3 would be handier and 4 is too many.More C235s plus the C295s are good ideas aswell.Might be better to put this in with the IAC Orbat thread I started (though I am more than a bit embarassed by that now).Any chance for people to post their idea of a reasonable IAC orbat aswell.Sorry for ripping your dream apart.

[yellowjacket]

I presume rather than a Mi-26 HALO, gaff85 meant helo.

Now, for an even more fanciful twist, after recent Irish experience with the HALO in Liberia, is there a place for it?

Rostvertol. the manufacturers offer leases with maintenance as part of the package. Machines like this would be very useful in missions abroad, in both peacekeeping/eforcement and humanitarian roles, which would offer a chance for the a/c to take a lead role.

[FMolloy]

As Aerlingus are not longer flying commuter aircraft, there is a perfectly usable hanger at Dublin Airport which could accommodate both the G-IV and the LJ45. There will already be a SAR detachment working from Dublin right beside this hanger so "security" should not be an issue.

How does the SAR detachment provide security for this proposed MAT's hangar? SAR is provided by a private company, not the defence forces. Any facility for MATs at Dublin Airport would require a 24-hour guard.

[ForkTailedDevil]

Nah, the Halo, its unecessarily huge (unleess you need to move an APC around and don't have friendly eastern Eurpeans or other operators to help), a bugger to ship abroad and maintainence would be a problem since its a Russian equipment fit that probably needs shipped home for major maintainence (even the Indian Airforce can't maintain theirs and have to send them back to the factory to get things fixed).Russian engines are simple to work with but need replaced quite often (more money), and it doesn't have a secondary role which is something that IAC aircraft should have due to the Corps size.

Yellowjacket!!!!! your a god!!, I've been looking for that pic of the Halo lifting the Chinooks for ages.Thank you!!!

Also, you suggest keeping the Dauphins.Why? They are dangerous, badly equipped, there isn't a suitably, or safely, equipped naval vessel to use them from and the airframe life is pretty much done

[morpheus]

Well, I think we have Eithne, and we have a Navalised Dauphin (or have we 2?) we should fire them off to the Navy and get a purely Naval Air Corps support role up and running.

To our resident SeaDog...

Goldie, in your opinion, would it cost less and make more sense than the price of an extra naval vessel or two, to update the avionics in these aircraft make them purely navalised, hand em to the navy boys, either train up, or transfer, crosstrain air and ground crews to a new naval air arm and expand the covered patrol area of the Eithne, maybe even fit them with the simplest of Air to Surface anti ship missiles, or at least a 50cal door gun for force projection if we needed to force a ship to turn around?

The rest could be either used for CSAR or else even turned into MATS helos config'd VIP flyers?

My personal humble opinion is EC135s as traininers, about at least 8 Blackhawks, a new naval heli vessel equipped with a SeaHawk, a second Seahawk for inshore patrols and recce as well as allowing one SeaHawk to be in maintenance without affecting the effectiveness of the Heli Naval Vessel, something along the lines of moving the CASAs to Shannon, buying one or two more of the 295? CASAs for Army transport, or preferably a token C130 for troop movement.

my 2c

[ForkTailedDevil]

From the posters I the naval section I was under the impression that Eithne was no longer safe for heli operations due to removal of equipment and little safety due to crappy fire fighting kit.
I dont think a Seahawk operating from an Irish Naval vessel is the best idea.Some may disagree with me but the Royal Navy is the one the INS would co-operate with most often.Would having equivalent ships and helicopters as them be a more suitable proposition ie Super Lynxes and Merlins?The Eithne was orginally meant to be embarking a Lynx anyway, wasn't it?

[ForkTailedDevil]

Anyway, Irish orbat as I would see it.
Formation of the Irish Naval Service Air Arm.Contains 4 C235MPs and 6 helicopters capable of shipboard operations.
IAC containg a MATS squadron consisting 2 C130, 3 CASA 295s and the Learjet 45.
Reconaissance and army co-operation unit containing 6 Defenders of similar specs to the Garda Defender plus helicopter transport unit of 8 NH90s.
Dedicated spec-ops unit for ARW support, CSAR etc with 2 helicopters similar in size and equipment to MH60 Pavehwaks
Civil assistnace unit consisting of the GASU plus 4 EC145s for inland SAR etc (or expand GASU to include these roles)
Training unit of 8 PC9s plus 2 EC135

[Stinger]

Why do we need 5 transport aircraft, 2x C130 and 3x CASA 295, in addition to the 3 maritime casa?

[ForkTailedDevil]

Discussed this is another thread.Maritime CASAs unsuitable for transport due to equipment in hold that is non removable.Only room for half a dozen persons.Thus need to go through the trouble to have dedicated tranport planes.C130s provide long range Army support worldwide whilst CASA 295 provide light and personel transport in Ireland and Europe

[T.I.M.]

Holy shit thats i big chopper!

[Aidan]

FTD, your orbat is interesteting, but why MH-60s along with the NH-90? The 90 can do almost anything the 60 can, including mid air refulling in time (not that it will ever be an issue for Irish helis), better to keep things common.

SAR is gone, and good riddance to it. Let private companies handle it, its better for the AC to have a military ethos rather than a Fire brigade style function.

I'm not quite sure what the obsession with ship board helis is either. What are they to be used for? The CASA's do MPA work, and they are specced and equipped exactly for that job. Traditionally, naval helicopters per se have three main roles, ASW, anti surface vessel, and utility. None of which are relevant to the Naval service at the moment. Were the NS operating 'warships', like frigates or even well armed corvettes, there might be a point, but as of now small helis in the Dauphin/Lynx class just suck funds that could be used elsewhere.

If, however, one is talking about Naval transport helicopters in the context of the long rumoured blue/green ship, then under FTD's original orbat there already exists a helicopter ideal for moving troops and equipment off a ship, the NH-90. More to the point, it would be interoperable with other EU countries on deployment also.

Since everyone else is doing it, my orbat, 2010 would be;

Training unit, 8 refurbed SF-260s, 12 PC-9s,

Heli training unit, 4xEC135 (also on island VIP transport)

4xCasa 235MPA, based in Shannon, with 2 slated for deployment with the EU-RRF, competencies to include general maritime patrol with an emphasis on blockade enforcement. Could also be used for riverine patrol. Only additional gear required would be an EW suite and possible Air to Surface weapons, possibly AGM-84 Harpoon but AGM-65F Maverick ideal (its cheaper, lighter and better in a cluttered littoral environment)

Military support wing; 3 leased C-130Ks with 3 A-400M on order, 2 x C-295.

Transport Helicopter Wing, 12 NH-90s, all deployable abroad, with Chaff/flare dispensers and basic ECM package. Also cross trained to work from the new NS LSD (ro-ro). Slated for everything from Aid delivery to peace enforcement troop movement to Spec-ops support.

Transport Wing augmented with 4-6 smaller helis, EC145/635 for deployment also, general utility and particularly Spec Ops support, set up for fast roping assault teams.

And Surveillance Squadron, 4 Defender 4000s, unit would also have access to Garda aircraft time when and if necessary, and vice versa.

Sell all MATS aircraft off, let the Govt pay a private company for VIP transport.

Let the Gardai handle their own helicopters, and Defender, based at Dublin Airport.

[mutter nutter (again)]

Is this what the Aircorp forum is reduced to, wish list thread's almost every week, it's getting old

[Aidan]

Nutter, its been like this for the last 5 years ...