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  • Helicopter Tender UH

    What class of helo would fit that discription, a blackhawk maybe?

  • #2
    At least its 8 "fully equipped" troops.

    Would that be Eurocopter Panther territory :confused:

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    • #3
      Why 8 when the section is 9? Why not go for at least 10?


      Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

      Comment


      • #4
        Good point Goldie, it does seem a bit half a$$ed alright. :(
        "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
        Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
        Illegitimi non carborundum

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        • #5
          looks like the army want the blackhawk , who wouldnt but politics will no doubt decide

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          • #6
            Why?

            Why such a large and expensive helicopter as the current Blackhawk design?

            It's based on a Vietnam War requirement issued 30 years ago and even the current "L" model is being replaced (but by what exactly) in the USA.
            eg.
            http://www.g2mil.com/Jan2004.htm
            http://www.sikorsky.com/details/0,30...TI1583,00.html

            Its all very well talking about capability but COST is the major driver behind military operations today - and the blackhawk -being typically American- does a good job but at a very expensive price in a very non-fue/maintainence efficent manner.l

            NB. its the manpower in the AC tech. wing who will be underpressure from such a new purchase -hence the need for type/model and hopefully engine standardisation/commonalization.

            As i see it the folowing furfil the requirements:

            -Sikorsky Blackhawk (various models)
            -Augusta A-109# / A-139#
            -Eurocopter EC-145/ (Yes, a refurbishment/'Zero Hours'and fitting of new engines + flight control funiture (read "Blades") of the the AC's current dzauphin's.
            -various Russian models, (e.g MiL-17 but unlikely in the extreme to be purcahsed)

            The important thing to remember though is COST and in the following order:
            1. Initial purchase price.
            2. Operating Costs (ie. Maintanence time, Fuel efficency, Time-between-failures, Replacment part cost, etc.)

            The thing is that given the long service life of these new helicopters, comparable to the AIII's, the 2nd criteria is more important.

            (Also in passing the fixation with TOS&E/establishments has little relevance. In an emergency, the single working UK CH47 during the Falklands war carried an entire reinforced company in just 2 lifts........... this far exceeded its "design purpose/limits". There is no reason to think that a helicopter designed for 8 cant carry 12 troops, maybe more, in an emergency -just becasue they won't all have cosy seats and seatbelts [what a concept in an aircraft!] doesn't mean they can't be moved.

            Before apoplexy sets in lets get the thinking caps on first ehh?

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            • #7

              Not gonna fit much more than 8 in there without seats..


              Less room with seats..only 6 going in this EC145

              I still want something like a Cougar/Puma type

              Even if you were to bang in a load of other gear,like strechers..


              Military helicopters as a rule have been built with redundancies,so they can if required go the extreme limit to carry out their task, Civilian "militarised" types do not have that luxury.

              Is the AB139 in full production yet? The A109 may be a bit of a squeeze. What about the AB412? 15 seats!

              Agusta


              Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

              Comment


              • #8
                Very interesting post there Wings_Ireland.

                Did you find out the reason they ruled out refurbished aircraft?


                Any chance the UH1-Y as chosen by the USMC could be in the running? It's the next generation in the Huey/212/412 family, and is going to be in service for a long time.
                .
                .
                .
                With 50,000 men getting killed a week, who's going to miss a pigeon?

                Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

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                • #9
                  I think its time I applied for a new job....

                  Incidentally, I dont think the AB139 is being used as a military heli by anyone else.


                  Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The AB-139 has been selcted by the USCG to replace its Dauphins, intresting if the P-21 onwards is to be replaced by more Roisin types, or if, like in most offshore patrol vessels, its decided to fit helicopter facilities.

                    the AB-412 has been far from popular in Canadian service.

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                    • #11
                      More info..

                      A bit more info gathered today guys.

                      The options for two aircraft did not specify time limits. This means that like the firm order prices, a decision will have to be made whether to exercise the options or not in the four month price validity time limit as mentioned before.
                      Analysing this a bit further, it looks like the DOD are exploring two schools of thought.
                      The larger helicopters specified would fall into two catagories:

                      1. Bigger more expensive utility helis like the NH-90/Blackhawk,costing somewhere in the region of €10m each.

                      2.Smaller utility aiaircraft like the EC-145/AB139 with a unit cost in the region of €6-8m.

                      Pick the bigger helicopter, keep the numbers at four.
                      Pick the smaller and exercise the options.

                      I should be saving this for the magazine!

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                      • #12
                        Sounds logical enough..
                        Do your sources have any word on what type the actually want? We have all been speculating but it would be nice to hear the professional viewpoint.
                        Think of it this way,consider the publicity this is generating for your magazine!


                        Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          My sources are external to the Dept, Air Corps and any decision making. This tender is at the moment, wide open. Your guess is as good as mine Goldie. We all know where Air Corps/Army's preferences would lie on this but it is down to the bean counters.
                          If you look at the tender, operational capability is the number one weighted criteria, followed by life cycle costs and then initial cost.
                          The weighting for each is not defined in the tender itself so it is almost impossible to say. For example, while a Blackhawk/NH-90 might be the most capable helis for the job, they would have higher life cycle and initial costs than the EC-145 or the AB139. The answer lies in the defining of the weights.

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                          • #14
                            Thankfully we won't have long to wait,as the current Govt will be only delighted to add this to their selection of feathers..if its successful....

                            What chance they foul this one up too?


                            Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Doubtful Goldie,

                              A serious problem will arise in December when the last Dauphin goes, regarding IFR flying capability and more importantly, pilot retention.
                              Also, 41 yr old heli falling out of the sky=bad publicity. The government are really backed up against the wall on this one, another medium lift fiasco would really damage the Air Corps and have serious implications for its future. There is no room for a cock up on this. This is vital, hence the timeframe specified.

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