Helicopter Tender UH

[Aidan]

Sorry Wings, should've been clearer. The EC-145 is too small to carry weapons and troops at the same time in any worthwhile quantities. Secondly, if the Air Corps is looking for troop carrying aircraft, then thats what it should be purchasing; ersatz troop/carrier gunships might be very well and good if you're using Soviet style tactics, and have aircraft the size of the Mil-24 and the Mil-8, the aircraft purchased for the AC will most definitely not be of this size.

Light armed helicopters are of very little use when using unguided weapons because of the simple fact that they can carry so little of them, and their optics and acquisition systems are so basic. The TF-Ranger-160SOAR example isn't exactly valid when you think of the circumstances, and the exceptional quality of the pilots and loose ROE. The Mil-24 (and 35sIIRC) that the Macedonians used during their problems a few years ago were worthwhile because they could carry a lot of 57mm rockets, had the optics to use them, and had ROE that were quite 'liberal'. Also, as FTD has said, the EC-145 is not exactly surviveable against anybody with anything more than a shotgun.

cost of developing weapons capability

What if the cost was negligible? These are very simple weapons, the lack of guidance removes a lot of the problems associated with weapons integration. Also, as I've said before, this idea of there being a specific 'military variant' is often pedantry, in light helicopters it generally consists of the civilian variant painted green with some clip on armament. Also, the Bolkow helicopters from which the EC-145 is developed carried armaments after all, particularly in Bundeswehr service (including 6 HOT) on stub wings.

The NVE requirement could be much more significant, for example, beacuse it would involve re-wiring and relighting the entire interior of the aircraft, including the instrument panel (According to the EC-145 PDF, NVG options are available on that aircraft, no word on additional cost)

And you do realise that since all development costs are integrated into the cost of the helicopters anyway, the Dept would end up paying for these in any case?; the additional costs might not be immediately visible, but they would be there. Eurocopter is not a charity, after all.

Thanks for the range figures, must have a look at some stage.

[ForkTailedDevil]

Its the EC145s configuration that makes it an unsuitable for turning into a weapon carrier.It would be an expensive cheap mans gunship and fairly vulnerable if anyone put it in a dangerous position.

Only the Russians use larger helicopters for weapons carriage-Mi-8/Mi-24

Just out of interest he gunship version of the Mi8 is the worlds most heavily armed helicopter, but it wasn't the largest.Two other choppers were larger and heavily armed.The awesome Vietnam era ACH-47 gunship and Israel have been experimenting with a Ch-53 with eight ATGM Nimrod missiles on the sponsons

[Goldie fish]

Re: EC-145

Originally posted by Wings Ireland

VIP Transport

3 crew(90kgs each)+

5 VIPs(90 kgs each)

150nm non stop +10% planned fuel+ 30 mins holding fuel at destination + diversion fuel to airfield 75 nm distant.

Have we any VIPs that weigh that little?

[Wings Ireland]

EC-145

Aidan,
In what way is the EC-145 too small to carry weapons?
The EC-145 is in no way small as far as weapons platforms go-or even as far as helicoptes go. It may not be a medium lift size but it is of similiar size to the Lynx, larger than the Squirell(Denmark)/Gazelle(UK/France)/OH-6(US Army)/A-109(Belgium).Only the Russians use larger helicopters for weapons carriage-Mi-8/Mi-24 and even they are reverting to smaller size armed helicopters.
I dont see any problem with it at all as a potential weapons platform. If anything it is larger than a lot of weapons capable helicopters. The problem is that no military variant exists and as such, it has not been modified to carry weapons and this leaves the helicopter in a bad position to meet all the options specified by the department.
As it is stated in the tender-all development costs incurred by deveolping Irish Air Corps specific requirements must be borne by the supplier and not the department. Therefore it is likely that the cost of developing weapons capability for a four helicopter order would be prohibitive for a manufacturer.

For those of you looking for mission ranges specified in the tender:

Troop Transport:

Two crew(90kg each)+
Eight Troops(115kg each-in light battle order)

120nm non stop + 10% of planned fuel + 20 minutes reserve

Air Ambulance:

3 crew +
2 medical attendants +
1 Patient

150nm non stop +10% planned fuel+ 30 mins holding fuel at destination + diversion fuel to airfield 75 nm distant.

VIP Transport

3 crew(90kgs each)+

5 VIPs(90 kgs each)

150nm non stop +10% planned fuel+ 30 mins holding fuel at destination + diversion fuel to airfield 75 nm distant.

[andy]

I posted this in the news section.........

Elite Army unit to get four armed helicopters

FOUR new armed helicopters are to be used by Ireland's elite soldiers, the Rangers, giving a boost to the country's anti-terrorist capabilities.

It is the first time aircraft have been acquired mainly for use by the Rangers and it also marks the first time Irish helicopters will be armed to support their operations.

Up to now, the Rangers have had to use small Air Corps helicopters, some of them up to 40 years old, but now the force will have large modern helicopters on call.

The move comes amid a continuing security review of Ireland's defence capabilities after the September 11 atrocities, which saw a boost in the strength of the Ranger Wing.

It also reflects the use of the Rangers on dangerous missions like those in East Timor and Liberia where helicopters proved invaluable for inserting and extracting small Special Forces teams.

Such tactics would also be used by the 40-strong Ranger unit promised by the Government to the European Rapid Reaction Force.

According to documents sent to helicopter manufacturers vying for the contract, the four helicopters will have a primary tasking of training and operating with the Rangers. They will each be able to carry two four-man teams.

Its great that the Wing is firmly in this selection process and will no doubt result in a proper military helicopter being purchased.

However it seems unlikely that the rest of the army will see much of the heli's when purchased.

I still think the government has made a balls of this whole thing. They should have got those 4 S-92's when they were on offer and now set out a tender for 6 blackhawks. Its the minimum requirement for the Defence Forces

[Aidan]

Were Eurocopter to do that, it would have to be taken into account in the tender documentation presented to the Department. Any extra costs involved in meeting the requirements would have to be included, up front, and so would be part of the decision making process involved in choosing the optimum tender. Given the legal problems experienced with the previous heli contract, I doubt very much if the Dept will be even a little flexible on these details.

Acually, I can't see that fitting these weapons would be a particularly big deal for the 145; ok, so the aircraft is too small to carry or use them properly, but Eurocopter have been fitting simple weapons like this to helicopters for years. The databus issue is easily solved, a simple stores management system would do the trick on the cheap. Anyone know what system is being used on the PC-9s?

This, on the other hand, looks much more purposeful. Pity its only a mock up.

http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/Fotos/agusta/AB139Mil.JPG

[ForkTailedDevil]

Of course they would go through the trouble and develop it to customer specification............and then add the programme costs onto the price since no-one else would want an EC145 with that level of armament since its a stupid idea.

[Wings Ireland]

EC-145

Only problem with the EC-145 is it cant operate in the "limited fire support role with a broad spectrum of weapons" that is specified separately to the GPMG requirement. It could be adapeted all right, but will Eurocopter go to that expense for a four helicopter order.

[ForkTailedDevil]

Most European nations don't have the spec ops helicopter capabilities of the Americans though many spec ops air support squadrons exist and are still very capable units An actual spec ops support unit would raise the standing of the IAC in Europe.But the wording of that articles still sounds like the EC145s with a MAG attached by chewing gum and bungee cords in the door as oppsed to proper spec ops support helicopter

Originally posted by gaff85
Is this in addition to the tender already out?

I take it that these are the four utility helicopters in the tender.

If the new utility helicopters are intendend for use with the ARW, that puts the requirements and candidate machines in clear context, doesn't it?

[gaff85]

Is this in addition to the tender already out?

The Irish Independent 08 June 2004

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1194785&issue_id=10972

Elite Army unit to get four armed helicopters

FOUR new armed helicopters are to be used by Ireland's elite soldiers, the Rangers, giving a boost to the country's anti-terrorist capabilities.

It is the first time aircraft have been acquired mainly for use by the Rangers and it also marks the first time Irish helicopters will be armed to support their operations.

Up to now, the Rangers have had to use small Air Corps helicopters, some of them up to 40 years old, but now the force will have large modern helicopters on call.

The move comes amid a continuing security review of Ireland's defence capabilities after the September 11 atrocities, which saw a boost in the strength of the Ranger Wing.

It also reflects the use of the Rangers on dangerous missions like those in East Timor and Liberia where helicopters proved invaluable for inserting and extracting small Special Forces teams.

Such tactics would also be used by the 40-strong Ranger unit promised by the Government to the European Rapid Reaction Force.

According to documents sent to helicopter manufacturers vying for the contract, the four helicopters will have a primary tasking of training and operating with the Rangers. They will each be able to carry two four-man teams.

Don Lavery

[ForkTailedDevil]

The Super Sea Lynx is in production and has most recently been purchased by South Africa.Unfortunatley I don't believe the army versions are in production.One bright side though may be the restructuring of UK helicopter forces.Small numbers of second hand Lynxes may become available, though age may be a problem.The Sea Lynx though could possibly be modified to an airmobility role.Not sure of the engineering involved but it shouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility.The changes between skids and wheels was a problem when the Royal Marines wanted army lynxes changed to wheels for shipboard handling.I've seen the cabin with changes made including a cabin mounted .50 calibre which showed plenty of room in there.Adding in crashworthy seats might require a fair amount of fiddling though the knowledge is there.If a Super Sea Lynx with various mods was purchased in would cover all roles in current adn future IAC roles, could be deplyed on land and would be ready for shipboard use with the folding tail etc.

It would be a great choice.Mix it with a couple of medium lift heli with the cargo hooks and a couple of small training helis and you have yourself the force you wanted.They have cabin space for a properly equipped section.

You maydisagree with me but interoperability with your nearest neighbours is something that should be considered.Either that or specifically NATO standard helicopters.

[Goldie fish]

Lynx?

Was thinking last night,our nearest neighbours have been using this heli for years with relatively few problems,it almost fits the bill for the military utility,apart from underslung load..
Any thoughts?



Dimensions (External)
Overall Length Rotors Turning 15.16 m
Fuselage Length 13.24 m
Width (excluding rotor) 3.02 m
Overall Height 3.50 m
Main Rotor Diameter 12.80 m
Tail Rotor Diameter 2.36 m
Dimensions (Internal)
Cabin Length 2.05 m
Cabin Width 1.78 m
Cabin Height 1.42 m

Accommodation
Cockpit Pilot and Co-Pilot
Cabin Up to 9 passengers
Cabin Volume 4.85 cu m
Cabin Floor Area 3.45 sq m

Rotor System
Main Rotor Type Semi-rigid
Main Rotor Blades 4 composite blades
Tail Rotor Type Fully articulated
Tail Rotor Blades 4 composite blades

Weights
Maximum All Up Mass 5126 kg
Cargo Hook Capacity 1360 kg
Standard Fuel 786 kg
Auxiliary Fuel Tank 353 kg each

Engines
Number 2
Make Rolls Royce
Model Gem 42-1
Take-Off Rating 746 kW each
Maximum Continuous 664 kW each

Performance
Cruise Speed 137 knots
Maximum Range (with auxiliary fuel) 530 nm
Endurance (with auxiliary fuel) 5.4 hours

(I wont even mention that it would fit perfectly in Eithnes Hangar..
:D )



Anyone?

[Goldie fish]

Point taken. We should forget about sar as an Air Corps function for the moment in any case. it has drained resources for too long,and the Air Corps are only lately realising how much it hindered their actual operational capability. Since handing over SAR,reluctantly to the Coastguard, it has been possible to have all allouettes available for operations,while in the past a number would have to be undergoing routine maintenance,in order to keep a certain number on standby for SAR ops.
Lets get back to basics first,the ability to carry troops to anywhere in the country,with their equipment. We can work on the other combat functions later on,before we can siphon off spare aircraft for civilian taskings.