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  • #31
    I wouldn't say it that way. Our source is reliable,though naturally it cannot be publicised.
    Consider it a "leak" rather than a "rumour".


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by andy
      The Blackhawk and UH-1Y both look like excellent helis. If the DoD got those two it would be a great combination.

      But as far as i can make out ur basically saying that the UH-1Y isnt going to be the LUH, there will be a 3rd heli ? :confused: :confused:

      Correct me if I am wrong but the DoD will have to get whats best for the AirCorps and Ranger Wing if the tender is to be legally followed. If the blackhawk and UH-1Y meet all the criteria and thus win the tender but the contract is given to a cheap 3rd rate competitor then there is bound to be legal action.
      The UH 1Y would fulfil the Utility heli section of the process,exceeding the minimum requirments. Only one type would be chosen.The question would need to be asked...4 or 6?

      The LUH is a seperate competition. I expect Eurocopter or Agusta would be the contenders there....though i did see an R22 on the back of a car trailer yesterday...


      Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Dublinmick
        Slightly embarrassing this. My bosses have held the story until Saturday.
        Your boss is a langer. No doubt it was bumped again to make room for details of the Portugeezer winning Big Bother...


        Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

        Comment


        • #34
          So um...they select one yet?
          "Everyone's for a free Tibet, but no one's for freeing Tibet." -Mark Steyn. What an IMO-centric quote, eh?

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          • #35
            The tenders were only opened on Tuesday...Give them a chance to read them at least...


            Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

            Comment


            • #36
              Well to quote the congressman from Fahrenheit 9/11 (and this probably the only factual thing in the whole movie)-"We don't really read the things we sign..." :D
              "Everyone's for a free Tibet, but no one's for freeing Tibet." -Mark Steyn. What an IMO-centric quote, eh?

              Comment


              • #37
                Did that scoop appear in the Papers yet?


                Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                Comment


                • #38
                  nothing in the Irish Time, Indo today they are taking their time about the whole thing arent they

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    I get the feeling we're about to repeat the old madness and buy the wrong chopper again. Why is the UH-1Y even being considered? Or the Blackhawk for that matter? Austria is the only EU state to buy the Blackhawk and that is for mountain search and rescue! Less and less countries are buying the Blackhawk these days. Australia is even looking to replace its fleet. The Blackhawk has lost in every competition it has entered of late, mostly to the new European NH90. Only this week Oman announced it was replacing its Huey fleet with 20 NH90s, on top of 16 Agusta-Westland Super Lynxes.

                    By trying to do this on the cheap the DoD is going to make a mess of this again. If they want to buy helicopters for UN operations like Liberia, as well as the ARW - and I understand this is what these new machines are for - then it makes sense to buy bigger machines that can move more troops in and out of areas of operation.

                    Remember Srebrinica? After the Dutch pulled out what did the Dutch government do? It purchased 13 Chinooks and 17 Cougars, backed by 30 Apaches, to back up Dutch troops on UN missions. They took them to Eritrea, Kosovo, Afganistan and Iraq. Wherever Dutch troops go, the choppers go with them. Just in case the shit hits the fan and they are left without support they can now get their troops out of trouble, fast.

                    If Ireland plans to put its troops in harms way, and that appears to be the case in Liberia and Kosovo, where things can kick off out of nowhere, they should be giving the Air Corps the tools to do the job. Rather than looking at Blackhawks (max 11 troops) we should be looking at NH90s (max 20 troops), Cougars (max 24 troops) or even EH101s (max 30 troops). I'm not suggesting gunships but proper troop transports are a must.

                    The countries we work closest with, Finland and Sweden, have ordered the NH90, as have Germany, France, Italy, Greece and Portugal, which has also ordered EH101s, along with the Danes.
                    The Brits are currently reappraising their helicopter fleet but it looks like more Chinnooks and EH101s, with possibly NH90s or a new Lynx version replacing older Lynxes. I know we are decades behind some of the above on helicoper support operations but we should learn lessons from them before we spend €50m or more on 4 or 6 machines that can't do the job effectively.

                    The ideal buy would be four or six A109s for LUH work and eight-10 NH90s/Cougars for army co-operation work. And before anyone says that's living in fantasy world, I agree. But that is only because politicians and civil servants have never taken this need seriously. The minimum needed to back 450 troops in Liberia and train at home is 14-16 helicopters. In fact, two LUHs and four UHs/MUHs are needed as a minimum for Liberia-style operations. Where does that leave the home front? Training, mainetenance, rapid response for ARW to terrorist incident? I could go on and on but I'll end now lest I bore everyone any more.

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                    • #40
                      yeah i have to agree with you there. I think the government is doing a rear guard action here and has botched things up since the Medium lift tender debacle.

                      Back then they should have got 5 S-92's or more appropriately 5 Merlin's. On top of that they should be getting 12 capable utility helicopters. The blackhawk is the favourite at the moment but seeing how easily those things are shot down in Iraq doesnt exactly inspire confidence.

                      A couple of things...

                      The government deploys troops overseas because they make a profit out of it. They will never have any vision thing and another Congo may well be on the cards. I.E irish troops in Africa without the right equipment getting butchered.

                      That quote in the 2001 white paper... something like duh " ireland is a small country and there is no requirement for helicopters, troops can drive" and the aircorps will never need to serve overseas

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                      • #41
                        I don't think Black Hawk is that bad a chopper. Maybe NH-90 was selected because there it is a cheaper alternative to it in a similar class?

                        Mountain Search and Rescue is a pretty demanding task, high-altitude work is not for all choppers. It should probably be seen as a plus for Sikorsky that its expensive product was selected for that task.

                        I should point out that Greece and Spain are also both Hawk users, and I believe they are both in the EU.


                        NTM
                        Driver, tracks, troops.... Drive and adjust!!

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                        • #42
                          I think we are missing out on the most important part of the tender here, equipment performance and type be damned..........what colour are they going to come in???????:p
                          Si vis pacem para bellum

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by ForkTailedDevil
                            I think we are missing out on the most important part of the tender here, equipment performance and type be damned..........what colour are they going to come in???????:p
                            Green, possibly with a big Eircom logo on the side. :D
                            "Everyone's for a free Tibet, but no one's for freeing Tibet." -Mark Steyn. What an IMO-centric quote, eh?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Jacknoble,you are entering the realms of wishlisting there. Read the tender,it is quite specific what we are getting. 2 of the Light Utility heli type,and 4 or 6 Utility helicopters. The larger type is looking to carry a MINIMUM of 8 troops plus 2 crew.

                              I am not disagreeing with your ideas,I see no problem with them in fact,but if this is what the DoD are willing to give us,then we had best make the best of it,instead of turning our nose up at it. It is the first time the DoD have even hinted at having a requirment for proper military helicopters. if these type are delivered,and prove satisfactory,then it may be the beginning of a new phase of Rotary wing operations.

                              The EHI01 and NH 90 are a different class of Heli completly,the requirement for which has never been put to bed. But the priority was replacing the workhorses of the air corps after forty years service,the Allouette 3,and also to get rid of the most overrated piece of crap ever to be seen wearing the celtic boss roundel,the dauphin. That said,I can see some of the A3s working alongside the new types for some time to come.

                              We have €50m to spend,on 8 or 6 helis. Thats it. that money may get you 2 or 3 of the larger type you suggest. Then what? Do we struggle on in 40 year old single engine machines till they too begin to fall out of the sky?

                              To paraphrase something your mother may have said..."You'll take what you're given,and be glad to have it."


                              Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Without completely jeopardising my own position, I have it from a very reliable source that the tenders do not include the Cougar, UH1Y or NH90 and that the vast majority of you will probably be disappointed when they are eventually announced. I really can't say more than that because to do so may cause legal issues at this early stage, but the source is beyond reproach. Suffice it to say, smaller rather than larger, with one exception....

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