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Why we need Helicopters/ Disaster Imminent(Merged)..

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Gunner75
    Lets face it we need, minimum, a fleet of 25 - 30 black hawks for the army/air corp to cover homeland and overseas missions and approx 8 chinooks. For gods sake the garda nearly have more helios than the army at present. The air corp need to take back control of SAR on the west coast as well.
    Like I have said before 10500 votes in the defence forces, time to let the government know this, time they invested.

    Gunner 75,

    Where did you get these figures from.The british at the height of the troubles hardly had those number of heli's operating in NI.As for the air corp taking back control of SAR,forget about it,that is not for the air corp to decide..Some people might not like what they read in a previous editorial but at the end of the day he is the person who calls the shots where civie SAR is concerned.He has (IRCG) six MLH at his control,he not depending on anyone else.That isn't going to be relinquished any time soon. :wink:

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    • #47
      Lets face it we need, minimum, a fleet of 25 - 30 black hawks for the army/air corp to cover homeland and overseas missions and approx 8 chinooks. For gods sake the garda nearly have more helios than the army at present. The air corp need to take back control of SAR on the west coast as well.
      Like I have said before 10500 votes in the defence forces, time to let the government know this, time they invested.
      Talk about plucking numbers out of the air !! wakey wakey !!

      And as for the defence vote, 10,500 is minute over the population and there are more important issues such as health, education and transport. Cop on. 8-12 blackhawks would be excellent.

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      • #48
        I understand that some wet treacherous members of the DF even vote on the basis of health and quality of life services and not defence procurement!
        "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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        • #49
          How much is the CHC contract worth per year?

          How can it make economic sense to pay for CHC's costs; the fuel, training, hourly operating costs, maintainace, their bank loans and interest(on the aircraft) and their PROFIT on top rather than doing it on our own. Long term economics mean we can eliminate interest and profit from above. Thus saving money.

          Does come down to efficency? Is it simply better value to contract a company to provide the service due to the beurocrasy(cant spell) and inefficency of the aer corps as a whole?
          Sex - Breakfast of Champions!

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          • #50
            Does come down to efficency?
            Yes, that and availability.

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            • #51
              We see again,both locally and overseas,how vital Helicopters are.

              In my own neighbourhood,2 Helicopters,from the GASU and Coastguard(Waterford),are involved in the search for a local missing boy. If either machine is required for other duties,as is not outside the bounds of possibility..what then?

              Thae NGOs and Aid Agencies in Indonesia are on the news every night saying how they need money for the disaster relief effort,but what they need almost more than that is Helicopters to distribute the Aid to areas which are now inaccessable.

              We need more helicopters. Everyone does. Until someone discovers another way to levitate.


              Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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              • #52
                Floods in the UK. Could we have coped?

                Given the nature of the floods in the UK and the extent of the heli ops flown by the RAF would we have been able to have responded on our own two feet if the same extent of flooding ocurred in Ireland? One thinks more investment needed in helios by the gov, what ya say all?

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                • #53
                  There are a lot more helicopters in Ireland than, say 10 years ago. There are five(?) Coastguard S-61s, plus those of the Air Corps and the GASU. But AFAIK there are also in excess of 150 commercial and private helicopters. One of the lessons of Hurricane Katrina in the US is the need to set up an emergency arrangement, whereby all available helicopters can be called upon and organised to respond to whatever natural disaster occurs.

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                  • #54
                    "There are a lot more helicopters in Ireland than, say 10 years ago. There are five(?) Coastguard S-61s, plus those of the Air Corps and the GASU. But AFAIK there are also in excess of 150 commercial and private helicopters."

                    unfortunately you forget most of the air corps and GASU helis have no winches so probably impractical for rescues in areas where they cannot land because of the flooding!

                    the same goes for the 150 private helis. do you expect civvi pilots suddenly to become rescue experts at the drop of a hat? most civvy helis probably carry no more the 4 people including pilot so are impractical for rescues of large numbers of people from waterlogged places.

                    so really ireland has maybe 6-7 rescue efficient helis. not much really for flooding to the extent seen in the uk over the past while.

                    instead of setting up an armada of rescue helis, what really needs to be addressed is the lack of equipment for the emergency services who would be first to respond and in reality perform most of the rescues the hard way. getting in the water and physically taking people out/off their homes, as the fire and rescue services have done in the uk.

                    we all remember the flooding of the tolka a few years ago and that small amount stretched the fire and rescue services in dublin. that was a relatively small incident in comparison to the uk. there is severe shortages of dry suits, boats, flotation devices, etc. for these people even today.

                    it would be better putting money and effort into properly equiping these services for the types of incidents they expect to go to and train for. cheaper and more effective in terms of productive effects if such levels of flooding happen here.
                    Last edited by X-RayOne; 23 July 2007, 21:53.
                    An army is power. Its entire purpose is to coerce others. This power can not be used carelessly or recklessly. This power can do great harm. We have seen more suffering than any man should ever see, and if there is going to be an end to it, it must be an end that justifies the cost. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by X-RayOne View Post
                      "There are a lot more helicopters in Ireland than, say 10 years ago. There are five(?) Coastguard S-61s, plus those of the Air Corps and the GASU. But AFAIK there are also in excess of 150 commercial and private helicopters."

                      unfortunately you forget most of the air corps and GASU helis have no winches so probably impractical for rescues in areas where they cannot land because of the flooding!

                      the same goes for the 150 private helis. do you expect civvi pilots suddenly to become rescue experts at the drop of a hat? most civvy helis probably carry no more the 4 people including pilot so are impractical for rescues of large numbers of people from waterlogged places.

                      so really ireland has maybe 6-7 rescue efficient helis. not much really for flooding to the extent seen in the uk over the past while.

                      instead of setting up an armada of rescue helis, what really needs to be addressed is the lack of equipment for the emergency services who would be first to respond and in reality perform most of the rescues the hard way. getting in the water and physically taking people out/off their homes, as the fire and rescue services have done in the uk.

                      we all remember the flooding of the tolka a few years ago and that small amount stretched the fire and rescue services in dublin. that was a relatively small incident in comparison to the uk. there is severe shortages of dry suits, boats, flotation devices, etc. for these people even today.

                      it would be better putting money and effort into properly equiping these services for the types of incidents they expect to go to and train for. cheaper and more effective in terms of productive effects if such levels of flooding happen here.
                      I agree that the emergency services should have the equipment they need to cope with flooding and other disasters.

                      I'm surprised to hear that so few Air Corps helicopters have winches. Was this not a requirement in both the LUH and UH specifications?

                      I wouldn't be so pessimistic about the contribution other helicopters could potentially make in a flooding situation, even without winches. There's usually some high ground in the vicinity, or they could drop supplies. And the pilots will often be ex-military.

                      As I mentioned earlier, lessons were learned about the organisation of helicopter assets from various state, commercial and private sources during Hurricane Katrina. The US experience and the implications for UK public policy were discussed at the recent Royal Aeronautical Society conference, as a result of which the RAeS is preparing a paper on the matter for the Cabinet Office.

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                      • #56
                        The AW139's all have winches afaik.

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                        • #57
                          The EC-135 aslo have winch capability if the need arose.

                          http://www.irishairpics.com/database/photo/1019921/

                          http://www.irishairpics.com/database/photo/1016432/

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                          • #58
                            Yes the can be fitted with winches but how many winches have been purchased?

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                            • #59
                              Judging from the pics on Frank's site, two of the AW139s & one of the EC135s have winches.
                              "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

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                              • #60
                                Hi there,
                                XR1 has a valid point about the real utility of the average civvie helicopter.Given that most of them spend their lives ferrying people to race courses,etc, their pilots have no experience of operating them as casevac aircraft/cargo-carriers,etc. America's civil helicopter aircrew are well versed in non-standard operations given that so many of them are ex-military or operate in paramilitary units such as the Coast Guard/police air wings/firefighting units,etc. You'd want to be beyond desperate to involve the Irish civvie heli fleet in any kind of relief work, unless you had a core of experienced aircrew and a decent plan to follow.
                                regards
                                GttC

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