Why we need Helicopters/ Disaster Imminent(Merged)..

[hptmurphy]

So lets qualify the need for more helos for the AC by quoting global warming.

I think for a country oursize having 6 very capable machines dedicated to Coast Guard work is a massive achievement in 8 years. Also given the back up the AC could provide if called upon were are now in a better position than we ever were. Couple that with the naval service we have moved on in quantum leaps in comparrison to the UK who now has about 25 ships deployable over a range of theatres with only two on maritime patrol...one in the falklands constantly...we are not doing that badly.

Yeah they have a much more powerful fleet but whats the use if it takes 10 times as much money to keep one frigate deloyed as opposed to an FPV...pound for pound I'd say we are doing quite well for the amount of money being spent.

[DeV]

Also (I know there are only 6000 in it but still) the UK has no local Civil Defence strucutre and they have a higher percentage (of their larger) military deployed overseas/

[X-RayOne]

good points jetjock.

basically what i am trying to get across is even with heavy investment in more rescue capable helis, if there was a similar disaster here in ireland, the proportion of rescues conducted by these helis would be quite low when the total number of people needing rescue is taken into account.

i said one fire service rescued about 200 people. bear in mind at this stage there a probably half a dozen fire services involved in rescues in the UK. if all are rescuing similar number the totals for people rescued or evacuated is in the thousands.

as you said, a balanced approach to funding all services needs to be taken. however, more helis are not a simple solution to such incidents.

[DeV]

Latest update on the CHC website is 6 helicopters are deployed to cover 4 bases.

[warthog]

there's now seven s-61's in service with the coastguard,plenty of winches too

here's what the ozzies do http://www.rescuehelicopter.com.au/wrhs/index.asp

[Jetjock]

X-RayOne,
While I agree that there needs to be investment in the emergency services I think it is a bit too soon to say that just because in the UK the fire service rescued 200 to the RAF's 80 that we should concentrate on funding emergency services alone. In all probability, the rescues involving helicopters were in areas inaccessable to the fire service. The question must be asked, how many of the eighty rescued would not have been so lucky had a similiar situation arisen here.Yes the fire service need investment both in the form of equipment and training for such a scenario. In terms of the overall picture the type of investment needed is not massive and should be undertaken in any case, without having to single out a particular area to focus spending. €20m would go a long way. Focusing on that alone is very near sighted and would be just another token gesture.There needs to be a balanced approach. Let's face it,the back up the Air Corps could provide to the Coast Guard SAR heli's would be little more than token. All we have confirmed so far is that there are 3 winch equipped heli's available, although the others would be able to provide resupply either underslung or internally loaded. There is a warning here that must be heeded. Only a few hundred miles away, one of Europes largest Air Forces had to mount it's biggest post war internal operation to cope with a natural disaster. Politicians take note. Could we cope? Short answer is no.

[X-RayOne]

the RAF issued a statement saying they rescued 80 people the day before yesterday from the UK flooding. this was the largest civvy operation they have mounted (open to correction on this).

bearing in mind just one of the UK fire services made over 200 rescues of people. and not taking into account the total number of people rescued by different fire and rescue services it probably runs into the thousands at the moment.

so the numbers rescued by heli are a small proportion, even with well established and funded levels of heli service. here in ireland we don't have the same levels of establishment (granted there have been improvements over the past years) so it still stands that proper funding and equipping of the emergency services would be money better spent and more effective in flooding situations as seen in the UK.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi there,
XR1 has a valid point about the real utility of the average civvie helicopter.Given that most of them spend their lives ferrying people to race courses,etc, their pilots have no experience of operating them as casevac aircraft/cargo-carriers,etc. America's civil helicopter aircrew are well versed in non-standard operations given that so many of them are ex-military or operate in paramilitary units such as the Coast Guard/police air wings/firefighting units,etc. You'd want to be beyond desperate to involve the Irish civvie heli fleet in any kind of relief work, unless you had a core of experienced aircrew and a decent plan to follow.
regards
GttC

[FMolloy]

Judging from the pics on Frank's site, two of the AW139s & one of the EC135s have winches.

[DeV]

Yes the can be fitted with winches but how many winches have been purchased?

[Jetjock]

The EC-135 aslo have winch capability if the need arose.

http://www.irishairpics.com/database/photo/1019921/

http://www.irishairpics.com/database/photo/1016432/

[Fouga]

The AW139's all have winches afaik.

[thebig C]

"There are a lot more helicopters in Ireland than, say 10 years ago. There are five(?) Coastguard S-61s, plus those of the Air Corps and the GASU. But AFAIK there are also in excess of 150 commercial and private helicopters."

unfortunately you forget most of the air corps and GASU helis have no winches so probably impractical for rescues in areas where they cannot land because of the flooding!

the same goes for the 150 private helis. do you expect civvi pilots suddenly to become rescue experts at the drop of a hat? most civvy helis probably carry no more the 4 people including pilot so are impractical for rescues of large numbers of people from waterlogged places.

so really ireland has maybe 6-7 rescue efficient helis. not much really for flooding to the extent seen in the uk over the past while.

instead of setting up an armada of rescue helis, what really needs to be addressed is the lack of equipment for the emergency services who would be first to respond and in reality perform most of the rescues the hard way. getting in the water and physically taking people out/off their homes, as the fire and rescue services have done in the uk.

we all remember the flooding of the tolka a few years ago and that small amount stretched the fire and rescue services in dublin. that was a relatively small incident in comparison to the uk. there is severe shortages of dry suits, boats, flotation devices, etc. for these people even today.

it would be better putting money and effort into properly equiping these services for the types of incidents they expect to go to and train for. cheaper and more effective in terms of productive effects if such levels of flooding happen here.

I agree that the emergency services should have the equipment they need to cope with flooding and other disasters.

I'm surprised to hear that so few Air Corps helicopters have winches. Was this not a requirement in both the LUH and UH specifications?

I wouldn't be so pessimistic about the contribution other helicopters could potentially make in a flooding situation, even without winches. There's usually some high ground in the vicinity, or they could drop supplies. And the pilots will often be ex-military.

As I mentioned earlier, lessons were learned about the organisation of helicopter assets from various state, commercial and private sources during Hurricane Katrina. The US experience and the implications for UK public policy were discussed at the recent Royal Aeronautical Society conference, as a result of which the RAeS is preparing a paper on the matter for the Cabinet Office.

[X-RayOne]

"There are a lot more helicopters in Ireland than, say 10 years ago. There are five(?) Coastguard S-61s, plus those of the Air Corps and the GASU. But AFAIK there are also in excess of 150 commercial and private helicopters."

unfortunately you forget most of the air corps and GASU helis have no winches so probably impractical for rescues in areas where they cannot land because of the flooding!

the same goes for the 150 private helis. do you expect civvi pilots suddenly to become rescue experts at the drop of a hat? most civvy helis probably carry no more the 4 people including pilot so are impractical for rescues of large numbers of people from waterlogged places.

so really ireland has maybe 6-7 rescue efficient helis. not much really for flooding to the extent seen in the uk over the past while.

instead of setting up an armada of rescue helis, what really needs to be addressed is the lack of equipment for the emergency services who would be first to respond and in reality perform most of the rescues the hard way. getting in the water and physically taking people out/off their homes, as the fire and rescue services have done in the uk.

we all remember the flooding of the tolka a few years ago and that small amount stretched the fire and rescue services in dublin. that was a relatively small incident in comparison to the uk. there is severe shortages of dry suits, boats, flotation devices, etc. for these people even today.

it would be better putting money and effort into properly equiping these services for the types of incidents they expect to go to and train for. cheaper and more effective in terms of productive effects if such levels of flooding happen here.