Why we need Helicopters/ Disaster Imminent(Merged)..

[SARMAN]

Dont really see where the we need more heli's thing is coming from, if anything we probably have to many SAR heli's, per head of population. Not saying this is a bad thing by the way.
Take for example aircraft crash at Invern west country very sad for the people involved and I dont mean to offend anyone involved my thoughts are with the familys of this very tragic accident. Just trying to state the operation that was put into plan minutes after the news.
One S61 on scene within minutes with medical team i.e 2 state registered Paramedics (The Crew) an A&E consultant and a Triage nurse on scene within 8 minutes of tasking. Another S 61 on scene within 25 minutes to help with critical patients. In total 5 stretcher cases removed from the scene within 35 minutes. Galway A&E activated its major emergency plan, dont forget on the same day and time in the Pale, 80+ children where taken from the sea after a 'freek wave' caused havok in Dublin bay, how long would it have taken the air-corps fleet to be at the two scenes. I can answer that question, becuase it happened between 0900 and 1630, to Dublin bay probably about 15 minutes by the time you get a crew, get kit in the aircraft and get the techs to pull the aircraft out. The Dublin based S61 was on scene in less than 10 minutes. Lucky enough the RNLI and event organisers had it well planned and the safety net that was in place was great well done to all involved..
Second scene at least one hour before any 135 or 139 would be any where near on scene.
My point being if any of these incidents where to happen outside the 0900 to 1630 time frame, it would be around 2-3 hours before the 135's or 139's would be on scene.. Great peices of kit potentially but really under utilised... RANT OVER!!!
SIZE DOES MATTER!!!!

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi there
In all my time in the Don, the SAR heli was either on the ramp, fully fueled and ready with it's complement of SAR gear, at the nearest pad, with it's crew 25 yards away in the SAR duty room or just inside the hangar door, facing out, attached to a tug.The Alouette could be airborne in less than five minutes.The Dauphin took longer because of the need to align the inertial nav system but could be airborne in about 15 minutes.I guarantee that when the shout went up for the SAR aircraft to launch, everyone put maximum effort to get it off.If it had to be changed for an other aircraft, the swapover could be accomplished in a few minutes.The heli lads were always conscious of the need for the SAR heli to be given max priority and always reacted as such.It was always the first one to be refuelled and checked after a flight.God knows I've slagged off the Don plenty of times and with good reason but the heli lads could pull out the stops when they had to.Internal/external politics killed off Air Corps SAR. Heli could still react rapidly to an emergency if they had to. Don't write them off yet.
regards
GttC

[Vmax]

I think what SARMAN is trying to put across is three SAR heli's availible in such a narrow time frame, and at opposite ends of the country to different taskings is no mean feat. Where the heli's are based also helps I suppose.

[Goldie fish]

Remember the Bus crash last year? They weren't long getting into action for that and It was noticed by all.
As you say Gttc, when they are needed, they pull out all the stops.

[DeV]

But that was during the day, if it had happened at night the response time would be longer, the duty officer has to call the lads (and girls) in, they have to get up, travel to the don, prepare for the mission etc

[hptmurphy]

Nice article in Todays Munster Express on the SAR unit in waterford..no I'm not scanning it on....very good read and totally vilifies what has been said about the coast guard units.

[hptmurphy]

Dont really see where the we need more heli's thing is coming from, if anything we probably have to many SAR heli's, per head of population. Not saying this is a bad thing by the way.
Take for example aircraft crash at Invern west country very sad for the people involved and I dont mean to offend anyone involved my thoughts are with the familys of this very tragic accident. Just trying to state the operation that was put into plan minutes after the news.
One S61 on scene within minutes with medical team i.e 2 state registered Paramedics (The Crew) an A&E consultant and a Triage nurse on scene within 8 minutes of tasking. Another S 61 on scene within 25 minutes to help with critical patients. In total 5 stretcher cases removed from the scene within 35 minutes. Galway A&E activated its major emergency plan, dont forget on the same day and time in the Pale, 80+ children where taken from the sea after a 'freek wave' caused havok in Dublin bay, how long would it have taken the air-corps fleet to be at the two scenes. I can answer that question, becuase it happened between 0900 and 1630, to Dublin bay probably about 15 minutes by the time you get a crew, get kit in the aircraft and get the techs to pull the aircraft out. The Dublin based S61 was on scene in less than 10 minutes. Lucky enough the RNLI and event organisers had it well planned and the safety net that was in place was great well done to all involved..
Second scene at least one hour before any 135 or 139 would be any where near on scene.
My point being if any of these incidents where to happen outside the 0900 to 1630 time frame, it would be around 2-3 hours before the 135's or 139's would be on scene.. Great peices of kit potentially but really under utilised... RANT OVER!!!


tendency to forget that for 30 years we depended on the AC,,did the job over and beyond what was called for and lost guys trying to perform that role out side the paramters of what was expected of them....

Do not ever try to under estimate what the AC have done.

[Vmax]

Dont really see where the we need more heli's thing is coming from, if anything we probably have to many SAR heli's, per head of population. Not saying this is a bad thing by the way.
Take for example aircraft crash at Invern west country very sad for the people involved and I dont mean to offend anyone involved my thoughts are with the familys of this very tragic accident. Just trying to state the operation that was put into plan minutes after the news.
One S61 on scene within minutes with medical team i.e 2 state registered Paramedics (The Crew) an A&E consultant and a Triage nurse on scene within 8 minutes of tasking. Another S 61 on scene within 25 minutes to help with critical patients. In total 5 stretcher cases removed from the scene within 35 minutes. Galway A&E activated its major emergency plan, dont forget on the same day and time in the Pale, 80+ children where taken from the sea after a 'freek wave' caused havok in Dublin bay, how long would it have taken the air-corps fleet to be at the two scenes. I can answer that question, becuase it happened between 0900 and 1630, to Dublin bay probably about 15 minutes by the time you get a crew, get kit in the aircraft and get the techs to pull the aircraft out. The Dublin based S61 was on scene in less than 10 minutes. Lucky enough the RNLI and event organisers had it well planned and the safety net that was in place was great well done to all involved..
Second scene at least one hour before any 135 or 139 would be any where near on scene.
My point being if any of these incidents where to happen outside the 0900 to 1630 time frame, it would be around 2-3 hours before the 135's or 139's would be on scene.. Great peices of kit potentially but really under utilised... RANT OVER!!!


tendency to forget that for 30 years we depended on the AC,,did the job over and beyond what was called for and lost guys trying to perform that role out side the paramters of what was expected of them....

Do not ever try to under estimate what the AC have done.

I will stand corrected on this. But I think you will find that SARMAN is an ex member of the Aer corp.

[Jetjock]

Nice article in Todays Munster Express on the SAR unit in waterford..no I'm not scanning it on....very good read and totally vilifies what has been said about the coast guard units.

In what way does it vilify the CG murf?

[SARMAN]

Quite correct I am an ex-member of the unit. At no time have I ever said or tried to under estimate what the Air-Corp have done in SAR infact they have produced world class crewmen and pilots who do SAR all over the world and are highly regarded in all SAR circles. I have lost friends and work mates in the Air-Corps SAR and they should never be forgotten.. Go Mardis Beo

[GoneToTheCanner]

Dev
You are underinformed.For years, the Duty SAR crew in the Don stayed in the Duty room 25 yards from the aircraft.They even had their own door, facing the aircraft.They were never off-base during their shift and were only out of the duty room to use the toilet or go to the dining hall/mess in small groups, with someone always in attendance at the duty room.They literally could be in the aircraft in seconds, if they needed to. Then it depended on how quickly they could get on the full body SAR suit and get the engine started. Mere minutes in the case of the Alouette.
Quite simply, they were good enough for long enough, when it mattered.
regards
GttC

[hptmurphy]

Its hows the professionalism and the commitment shown by the CG..Top notch bunch of guys putting their life on the line for others...carrying on the tradition the AC SAR units built in their days in the role.

Very positive article good to see positive reporting on the subject.

I will stand corrected on this. But I think you will find that SARMAN is an ex member of the Aer corp

Good for him thank you for providing the SAR cover for 30 years when the state didn't give a damn as is proven by the conditions the crews were expected to operate under and with the machinery to hand.

I think the point was missed....We will be eternally greatful to those who did the job under the worst conditions immaginable with very little recognition.....The whole scenario has taken giant leaps for ward but none should under estimate those who did the job in the past.

I never intended it to be a slight on anyone involved.

[DeV]

I WOULD NEVER UNDERESTIMATE OR UNDERMINE WHAT AC SAR PERSONNEL HAVE DONE - GO MARDIS BEO SAYS IT ALL.

I'm not refering to times gone by when AC had aircraft on standby at various times in Shannon, Finner, Silgo, Waterford & the Don.

I'm refering to the situation NOW - the only SAR aircraft on standby in the Republic are those of CHC (a contractor (IMO for shame)).

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi all
The only thing preventing the Air Corps from doing any kind of SAR is itself.The heads destroyed their own SAR by claiming that a labour dispute among the noncommissioned SAR crewmen brought about the end of AC SAR....The Alouette was too small and had only one engine...the Dauphin was better but not big enough and was a huge budget-eater...getting the S61 was simply too late.Official confidence in the Air Corps was lost.End of story.
regards
GttC

[Goldie fish]

I WOULD NEVER UNDERESTIMATE OR UNDERMINE WHAT AC SAR PERSONNEL HAVE DONE - GO MARDIS BEO SAYS IT ALL.

I'm not refering to times gone by when AC had aircraft on standby at various times in Shannon, Finner, Silgo, Waterford & the Don.

I'm refering to the situation NOW - the only SAR aircraft on standby in the Republic are those of CHC (a contractor (IMO for shame)).

The air corps have the option to submit a tender to provide SAR cover in the same way as CHC scotia, or in the Past, Irish Helicopters have. However they have decided not to, and concentrate their meagre resources on military flying for now.

SAR is not a military task. Their are actually very few countries who rely on the military air wing to provide SAR. Instead, it is provided by a coastguard, with the military providing a backup SAR function, due to the availability of CSAR assets. For example, the USN routinely flies SAR helis from its aircraft carriers, yet these are not considered primary SAR assets. Instead the USCG provides front line SAR, with the ANG providing a second line, with their CSAR para rescue helis. They already have the redundant capacity, so they use them.
The UK is moving slowly away from using the RAF as the Primary SAR asset. While the sight of the yellow Sea King is not gone from the skies, Coast Guard Sea Kings are taking over most of the Coastal work, as the RAF helo commitments become stretched with the new troop transport arrangements for the British Army. The SAR that the RN used to provide With their Distinctive Orange and Grey Sea Kings has diminished greatly in profile. Worth mentioning that there has been no mention of a replacement for the SAR sea kings in the UK, which have been in service since the early 70s.