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Air Corps:The future

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  • Air Corps:The future

    Given the recent discussions,and the lack of understanding that some people have of the current capabilities of the Air Corps, I thought its time to see where they are,and where they are going,aircraft by aircraft.

    I have colour coded the types based on whether they are:-
    due for retirement within 10 years
    available for at least 10 years
    awaiting disposal
    aircraft ordered,but not delivered

    1 Beech King Air 200 2010

    5 Cessna FR172H/K 2002

    4 Aerospatiale SA365Fi Dauphin 2003

    8 Aerospatiale SA312B Alouette III

    7 Siai-Marchetti SF260 WE 2002

    1 Aerospatiale SA342L Gazelle 2004

    1 Gulfstream IV 2021

    2 Casa CN235 2024

    1 Bombardier Aerospace Learjet 45

    8 Pilatus PC9M

    2 Eurocopter EC135P2

    6 Agusta Bell AB139
    Goldie fish
    Tim Horgan
    Last edited by Goldie fish; 26 October 2008, 11:11.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  • #2
    When you look at it, that's 25 aircraft going to be retired in the near future with only 6 new aircraft ordered.

    That'll give us an operational strength of 18 aircraft
    - 2 business jets
    - 2 maritime patrol aircraft
    - 8 trainers (training for what I don't know)
    - 6 helicopters

    We'd have to buy another 19 aircraft just to maintain the present fleet number (excluding the Marchettis)

    6 choppers for the entire country? Something's wrong somewhere.
    "Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied."

    Otto Von Bismark

    Comment


    • #3
      Errr, strictly the Marchetties should be coded blue as they are stored out of use awaiting a sale decision.
      The Gazelle currently remains in use.
      The Lear jet is apparently due to be sold????

      We should be considering a much larger fleet of helicopters, as well as transport aircrafts, a utility replacement [more helicopters?] there really should be more then 2 Maritime patrol aircrafts, and also what ever 'they' have in mind for the PC-9's to lead too, assuming this is what 'they' have in mind, assuming 'they' can scrape together a mind between them.
      "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
      Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
      Illegitimi non carborundum

      Comment


      • #4
        PC-9 training leads to Ryanair et al. As did other basic trainers lead to Aer Lingus at one stage. As a strategy for the State it was an excellent plan for peacetime. The same was true for the Heli wing, through the AC and on out the other side to Bristow or some other outfit. This was also true for the technical ground crew. The money spent on the AC seems from this remove to benefit the State in the creation of skilled technical workeforce , the most valuable resource we can have.
        Gunner Who?
        40 years still keen
        Last edited by Gunner Who?; 5 June 2005, 01:43.

        Comment


        • #5
          I agree - more transports are needed, both fixed-wing and rotary....a.s.a.p!

          However, I think the PC-9's have been a 'wise buy'. They have the flexability to train pilots from basic to advanced flying, while also providing the Corps with a useful light strike capability!
          And don't forget, the PC-9's have replaced two aircraft types!
          IRISH AIR CORPS - Serving the Nation.

          Comment


          • #6
            Abrakadabra, One new one replaces 2 or even 3 old ones . What kind of smoke and mirrors game is that being peddled by some slick consultant. Its numbers in the air that count , does that mean by any stretch of the imagination that if one of these is shot down of otherwise falls out of the sky then it will be reported as two of our aircraft are missing? dum de dum. BTW there is a good video clip of an AC PC-9 live firing in Austria on the go.
            Gunner Who?
            40 years still keen
            Last edited by Gunner Who?; 5 June 2005, 00:37.

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            • #7
              As to the future, Close Baldonnel and move to the Boot Inn side of Dublin Airport . Think of the savings that would make. As the airport must be high on the VI list there would be an on site presence. Of course this would be true for Shannon pehaps a better macro economic as well as security case to be made for relocating there. Look to the future ok
              Gunner Who?
              40 years still keen
              Last edited by Gunner Who?; 5 June 2005, 01:30.

              Comment


              • #8
                Goldie,

                A very comprehensive list.The reims rocket K model 243 was sadly destroyed.Are there sill five or four of the H model left.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I included losses in the above figures. 248 and 243 are not included,as well as the gazelle that was used as a plough.


                  Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I'd be willing to consider that the King air and Cessna replacments will be bundled together too,with the same two for one deal that has seen the Pilatus replace the Fouga and Marchetti. Possibly a twin engined machine,to allow conversion training to the larger types such as the CN235 and GIV. A certain amount of VIP transport would possibly be expected too,if only for "island hopping".

                    I'd say about four of this type. I'd rule out the caravan, due to its single engine nature,as well as the fact that its potential pilots would be in the unusual situation of having to move after initial training to a less powerful type.


                    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      So in reality the fleet looks like this:


                      1 Gulfstream IV 2021

                      2 Casa CN235 2024

                      1 Bombardier Aerospace Learjet 45

                      8 Pilatus PC9M

                      2 Eurocopter EC135P2

                      4 Agusta Bell AB139

                      Not great, but to be honest, it looks like part of the mickey mouseness could be gone. If the expand the fleet by buying more of these airframes, say 4 more 139s and then 2/4 more 135s it looks a lot better.
                      Meh.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        True. I would prefer to see 25 aircraft of six different types than 42 aircraft of 12 types.

                        I still say they should get a few more CN235N type instead of flashy biz jets. I'd be willing to trade the Learjet,King air and the remaining 5 Cessnas for 3 or 4 more Standard CASAs.


                        Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Yeah, but buying regular CASA's is a commitment to Airlift. If we go down that road I'd rather see something capable of lifting a Mowag - that said, can a reguar 235 or 295 do that? I don't know. Either should be capable of lifting the IMO paratroop regiment however.

                          Whatever we get, let's hope it's something that shares parts/training so it will drive cost down for bang for buck.
                          Meh.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            can a reguar 235 or 295 do that?
                            Nope, a standard C-130 would be tight, chances are (the turret on Irish PIIIs is higher than that on the Stryker, and the only way that fits in the USAF C-130 fleet is if they waive safety regulations). To realistically be able to airlift the PIII, you'd need something of the order of the AN-124 or A400.

                            Cases where the need to airlift PIIIs using owned assets are likely to be rare, rare enough not to justify the costs of ownership of these size of aircraft in their own right. Theres a lot to be said for a C-295, not least the substantial parts commonality with the CN-235s already in service. A pair of C-295s for transport to begin with, and a further pair of 235s for MARPAT would be a great start. Both, unfortunately, would have to be paid for entirely out of national funds.

                            Were the AC in a position to operate, maintain and support a fleet of this size of aircraft over a period of years, then they'd be in a position to consider operating larger types. But not before.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Looking at what aircraft will be left over, the only missions will be VIP transport, training and ACP. Maybe the Agusta Bell will be able to perform light military duties, but I'd say SAR and Air Ambulance services will be what the helicopters will be doing in the future. As to the fixed wing aircraft, the VIP transport and fishery patrol functions must continue, and if we want to continue to train pilots the PC9s and the odd Cesna will be necessary.

                              I'd love to have transport helicopters for Infantry, but given the budget, that's a dream, and why would we need them? Do we really need transport for infantry? On UN missions others can provide that and transport helicopters would be too vulnerable without fixed wing aircraft to protect them, so unless we got some fighters too I'd say the missions as above will be what we can do in the future. And do we really need the PC9s? Why not outsource the training to the States? Better and Cheaper?!?

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