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  • Defender replacement

    I don't know when this is due, but I gather that they are not loved. I recently came across the Diamond DA-62 MPP, which is for instance used by the Italian Police.

    https://www.diamondaircraft.com/en/s...-mpp/overview/


  • #2
    they issued a RFI in 2016
    https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Suppli...TENDERS_SIMPLE

    There was also to be an option for a 4th in what became the PC12 contract for GASU

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    • #3
      Many in air Corps want AGS out, AGS never wanted to be working with air corps from day 1. Wouldn't be surprised if the Defender replacement wasn't an air corps aircraft. As Coast Guard demonstrate well, plenty of civvy heli pilots able for the job.
      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
        Many in air Corps want AGS out, AGS never wanted to be working with air corps from day 1. Wouldn't be surprised if the Defender replacement wasn't an air corps aircraft. As Coast Guard demonstrate well, plenty of civvy heli pilots able for the job.
        Never really understood how the Air Corps ended up with it in the first place tbh?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
          Many in air Corps want AGS out, AGS never wanted to be working with air corps from day 1. Wouldn't be surprised if the Defender replacement wasn't an air corps aircraft. As Coast Guard demonstrate well, plenty of civvy heli pilots able for the job.
          I thoroughly dislike handling sovereign functions like law enforcement through contractors. I'd like to have a civilian unit that handles

          - SAR
          - GASU
          - Aer Ambulance
          - Firefighting

          if we don't want the AC to do it. Maybe stick it in Civil Defence?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post

            Never really understood how the Air Corps ended up with it in the first place tbh?
            Neither did AGS. Nobody else has mil pilots flying police.
            imagine if cav drove cops everywhere?
            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Graylion View Post

              I thoroughly dislike handling sovereign functions like law enforcement through contractors. I'd like to have a civilian unit that handles

              - SAR
              - GASU
              - Aer Ambulance
              - Firefighting

              if we don't want the AC to do it. Maybe stick it in Civil Defence?
              Bollix to that.
              AGS used to do their own towing, now contractors do it, and are better equipped to do it.
              many of the Air ambulance flights done by Air Corps are also done by private aircraft, chartered by health insurers.
              If we didn't have each county having its own fire service, we might be able to have dedicated firefighting aircraft. The reality however is some County fire brigades have to use second hand appliances and tenders.
              AGS already own their aircraft. They were funded from the Justice budget. Initially, their crew even took flying lessons on their own dime, lest the DoJ have a change of mind.
              For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

                Bollix to that.
                AGS used to do their own towing, now contractors do it, and are better equipped to do it.
                many of the Air ambulance flights done by Air Corps are also done by private aircraft, chartered by health insurers.
                If we didn't have each county having its own fire service, we might be able to have dedicated firefighting aircraft. The reality however is some County fire brigades have to use second hand appliances and tenders.
                AGS already own their aircraft. They were funded from the Justice budget. Initially, their crew even took flying lessons on their own dime, lest the DoJ have a change of mind.
                talking about fire authorities we have 30 fire authorities running 218 fire stations, there isn’t even framework contracts for them for anything (want a new appliance, uniform etc, up to 30 separate contracts)

                Comment


                • #9
                  ah its alright, the new c295s can be converted

                  Water bomber

                  A versatile roll-on/roll-off system converts the C295 into an efficient water bomber to fight forest fires with up to 7,000 litres of water or retardant.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    An interesting set of Tweets on the SCAR pod on a Twin Otter as part of the GASU Defender replacement

                    * https://mobile.twitter.com/SpotterIr...06939181981698

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Twin Otter would be a massive retrograde step.
                      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                        Twin Otter would be a massive retrograde step.
                        How? the modern Twin Otter is no slouch for aerial surveying, as has been regularly demonstrated over Ireland for the last few years. One of the short comings of the Defender was it's very cramped interior and it's very limited production meant that spares were/are very expensive. At least the Otter is well supplied with spares and has amply demonstrated it's utility in many roles. The Defender is also slow, noisy and essentially at the end of it's development potential.

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                        • #13
                          The slow speed of the "Offender" was the main reason for its selection. It needs to loiter in the air for long periods monitoring activities on the ground from afar, and relaying this to HQ. It had a very different role to that of the Helicopters in many ways.
                          I was overflown by the survey otters in recent years. Even the dogs barked at them they were so low.
                          However it is still a 60 year old design. Things have moved on. Many suggest a larger rotary wing aircraft would make a better replacement.
                          But none of which has anything to do with the PC-9M.
                          For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The Viking Twin Otter is quite a different animal than the original and anyone who has ever flown them or operated them has the height of respect for them. The downside of the Defender being so slow was that transiting to operating areas is a ballache. I've a very, very small amount of time in flying Islanders and you could use a calendar instead of an airspeed indicator. Their STOL capability is of no use to the Gardai. I doubt that the Gardai would go for a twin turbine, unless it was a heli. I expect that a lot of future Gardai aerial surveillance will be conducted by suitably equipped UAVs and the pilot will sit in a portacabin in the Garda HQ....

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                            • #15
                              Ref post 2 - what AGS were looking at:

                              All of the aircraft are flown by Irish Air Corps Pilots with two Garda (Irish Police Service) personnel acting as Air Observers, one observer deals with communications and navigation while the other operates the sensors.

                              The aircraft are utilised to detect, deter and mitigate threats to the State such as acts of terrorism, drug smuggling etc. Currently, various aircraft are utilised to assist ground surveillance, intelligence gathering and ground interdiction missions. To improve mission effectiveness and resource flexibility, as the current fixed wing aircraft is reaching its notional end of life, GASU wishes to replace the Defender aircraft with a sensor-equipped multi-role fixed wing aircraft that can effectively perform these types of missions.

                              GASU is seeking information on commercially available aircraft that could be configured to satisfy all or a large portion of the general requirements stated below. The configuration should emphasise the ground surveillance, intelligence gathering and ground interdiction missions however, design flexibility is needed to support ancillary missions such as logistical support. In the interest of accountability and oversight, GASU intends to select a prime contractor for the end product (aircraft and integrated mission equipment).
                                1. Type of Aircraft

                              The aircraft should be a commercially available turbine-powered airplane that is currently in production and can be EASA certified in the CS23 category in the proposed mission configuration. The aircraft should not be pre-owned. To reduce programme costs and enhance maintainability, the sensors should be commercially available, non-developmental equipment, operationally viable (demonstrable) and capable of being easily retrofitted with the latest configurations. The sensors should be fully supportable (parts, technical assistance, etc.) for up to 10 years beyond the date of acquisition.
                                1. Noise Limitation Requirements

                              At a minimum, the aircraft and its engine(s) must comply with the Stage 3 noise requirements of EASA CS36.
                                1. Capacity

                              In the ground surveillance, intelligence gathering and ground interdiction missions the aircraft must accommodate seating for two crewmembers in the cockpit and two or three GASU sensor operators. In the logistic support configurations(s), the aircraft must accommodate seating for two crewmembers in the cockpit the two GASU sensor operators and tactical team members.

                              The aircraft should be configured to facilitate the installation and removal of the sensor operator console(s), mission equipment, passenger seats and cargo. The cargo area should have sufficient restraining devices for cargo. The aircraft should also have a toilet.
                                1. Operating Speeds, Climb Performance, Range, Endurance

                              The aircraft should have a minimum cruise speed of 160 knots or more at transit altitude and a patrol speed of 120 knots or less at patrol altitude (2,000 feet MSL) on a standard day at 90% gross weight. The aircraft should have a landing configuration stall speed of between 45 and 95 knots.



                              The aircraft should also have the endurance to perform the following mission profile with EASA IFR reserves.

                              Transit 170 NM to the patrol area at maximum cruise speed (figured @ 0 wind)

                              Patrol at 2,000 feet MSL for circa 1.5 to 2 (preferably more) hours

                              Transit 170 NM to return to base (figured @ 0 wind)
                                1. EASA Certification

                              The aircraft must be EASA certified for the following:
                              • Compliance Specifications (CS) 23 Category
                              • Day/night visual flight rules (VFR) and IFR operations
                              • Flight into known icing conditions
                                1. Runway

                              The aircraft should have short take-off and landing capabilities (STOL).
                                1. Sensor System

                              The aircraft must have a fully integrated sensor system that is commercially available, currently in production, operationally viable and capable of being easily retrofitted with the latest configurations.




                              At a minimum, the sensor system should include the following:
                              • Removable console(s) that provide(s) the sensor operator(s) with the ability to control and simultaneously display a moving map and electro-optical/infrared (EO/IR) sensor imagery.

                              At a minimum, the console should include:
                              • A digital video recorder (DVR) to record audio and video of the sensors
                              • Multifunction displays capable of presenting various formats including HD
                              • An augmented reality moving map that facilitates the display of a variety of maps and displays the aircraft position and depicts routes and EO/IR sensor footprints.

                              A standard keyboard and trackball should be provided as an alternate means of control.
                              • EO/IR sensor housed in a turret that is capable of performing long-range visual search, surveillance, and tracking in the visible light spectrum as well as the infrared spectrum. The EO/IR sensor should be interfaced with the moving map system and be capable of slaving to targets.


                              The sensor payload should include:
                              • Multiple sensors including a laser range finder, zoom CCD TV, camera spotter scope and infrared camera(s).
                              • Sensor geographic pointing based on an entered latitude/longitude and the location that the sensor is pointing.
                              • Automatic focus and tracking capability in both electro-optical and infrared modes.
                                1. Desired Capabilities
                              • Growth capability/provisions for additional surveillance systems.
                              • Short/unimproved runway take-off and landing capability



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