Up Gunning The Air Corp

[The Blue Max]

Ive read alot of threads that talk about what we should have (Gripen,Apache or A400M just as examples) and the usual response of Dream On!!!! but I have noticed very little talk of the actual capability we have at our finger tips for example the actual weapons fit etc that are aircraft can carry or what is capable of carrying for example

1. Pilatrus PC-9M carry can carry 12.7mm gun pods and SNEB (FFR) Rocket Pods but what other capability could it pocess?? I Have spoken to some Juniour Officers in the Don and I have been told that the PC-9M has the capabilty (not yet utilzed though) to use the AIM-9 Sidewinders and could probably carry the Pirinhia SRAAM carried by the the Brazilian Super Tucano's. But would it be possible for the PC-9M to carry any form of Air To Ground Missile (Hellfire etc..) or would the PC-9M be un compatable??

2.Casa Cn235 Persuader Is A fine aircraft and serves the Air corp very well in its role as a MPA (Maritime Patrol Aircraft) I recently read that the aircraft is capability (not yet utilized) of carrying some form air to surface missile (ASM) what form could they take Exocet/Sea Skua/Harpoon Or Maverick or is it known??

3.The Newly ordered Agusta Bell Ab139 and Eurocopter EC-135 have the option for ''Broad Spectrum Of Basic Weapons'' built into the contract, but what form would this be, would it most likely be 7.62mm gun pods and SNEB (FFR) Folding Fin Rocket pods similiar to those fitted to the Marrceti's or what type of weapons could these new aircraft take??

This thread is only query to the capability that the air arm of the country could carry and would not cost huge somes to obtain and use with these already Serving/Ordered aircraft.

[pym]

Hi, the first question that springs to my mind is whether sticking an aim-9m on a pc-9m makes any sense whatsoever? It's a very capable missile, but it's really designed for relatively close quarter a-a combat, something, it hardly needs to be said that the Pilatus is woefully ill equpped for.

In what context would a PC-9 need/fire a Sidewinder?

In my opinion the cannon is a better option for it in AA engagements as it allows the pilot to fire a warning shot that wont cost $80,000. It would be unlikely in my opinion that the pilots would have to engage anything more than your average turboprop. The only reason I can think of having the sidewinders would be as some kind of deterrant, and in the very unlikely situation of a Pilatus having to shoot down a jet

(Granted nimrods got sidewinders in the falklands war......)

The Casa's weapons capability, or lack thereof, has interested me for a long time - it is marketed (the MPA version that is) with air to surface missiles. It would be a massive and welcomed boost in capability. If more CASA's are ordered they should be armed in my opinion, although perhaps when the IRA weapons smuggling was still ongoing wouldve been the prime time for it...

As regards the AB-139, they will be fitted with door mounted machine guns. The military spec AB-139 mock up was fitted with rocket launchers and gun pods

[The Blue Max]

It was very recently said to me that the Air Corp is considering equiping the EC-135 with some form of Rockets (SNEB) or similiar. As I presume it would aid them in there {RISTA} capability?? Oh the only ever use for the PC-9M that would be using the likes of the Aim-9/Pirianhia (AAM) in Irish Service would be in a close quater situation performing some sort of Combat Air Patrol {CAP} or patroling an air exclusion zone such as during the EU head of state visit last may. What form of cannon could be visiable on the PC-9M or do you mean the 12.7mm gun pod??

[pym]

I actually made a stupid error, I thought the issued pods were of 20mm calibre, they're 12.7, d'oh.

A cannon would be an interesting idea in itself, here's just one 20mm example: http://www.giat-industries.fr/asp/us/prod_nc621.asp

The idea of arming the 135's is a very interesting one and makes alot more sense than arming the 139's with SNEB in my opinion. Reading between the lines, it looks like an interesting future for the air corps.

[Bam Bam]

but will they be going overseas?

[pym]

Well I doubt it with the current numbers, unless it was an absolute dire emergency, but it will allow for better CAS training with troops before they go abroad as part of UN or EU RRF and possibly serve as a stepping stone to better things (more and more capable heli's)

[yooklid]

Without meaning to be facetious,

They may be required to shoot down an airliner at some point

[pym]

by way of example:

Boeing 767, max cruising speed 898 km/h at 39000ft

PC-9M Cruise Speed 500km/h at sea level, 556km/h at 6100m. (and probably much slower with munitions)

Trying to intercept anything without an internal radar, with a massive speed and height disadvantage, leaves very little window, in the even slimmer instance that there is one, to shoot a sidewinder at a passenger airplane. Its an absolute non starter in my opinion.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi all
Whilst there have been quite a few combats in which a slower, allegedly less capable aircraft has turned the tables on it's faster jet opponents, all have involved guns (Skyraider Vs. Mig 15, Mig-17 vs. F-4/F-105 and others), in very close-in dogfights. A PC-9 with Sidewinders could only hope to fend off the inevitable and realistically could only be used to either shoot down a slow commercial-class aircraft or a helicopter or a similar turboprop. With regard to rockets on small helicopters, the jury is out on them. The RAF tried them on the Gazelle in the Falklands and ditched them as unworthy of the effort. Possibly, the Hydra 70s on an MD500 work, but they're a better weapon than the old SNEBs. PC-9s can probably carry any standard NATO weapon that'll match the weight profile of the pylon and have the appropriate technology in the cockpit to fire and track them. No point in whacking off a Hellfire and keeping an eye peeled on where it's actually going. Apart from all that, if they bought more advanced arms for the PC-9s, they'd have to find somewhere to train with them.Can't see Finance accepting a story that they have to go to Lulworth or wherever every week for the next decade!
regards
GttC

[FMolloy]

BAe are doing laser-guided 2.75" rockets. You could probably stick them in a PC-9's pods easily enough & have someone on the ground designate targets. But I doubt it would be worth it.

[kiwi1]

Hi all its interesting about your ideas/proposals to upgun the IAC but is it wortwhile unless you are going to transition into something else eg close support/multi role aircraft.The future is staring us in the face,uavs are the way.In NZ we are looking closely at these for theRNZAF/NZ army for future operations.

[The Blue Max]

Up Gunning The Air Corp

Thanks lads for all responses to the thread i taught it may bring some more light to the subject of the Air Corps full potential capability on some of their aircraft. Realistacally the PC-9M/EC-135 are/will mainly be used for training Defence Forces personnel for future work with some form of CAS aircraft either Fixed wing/Rotary on Internal/Overseas service and would such only be expected that armanents would repect that. I think FMolloy idea of Laser Designated Rockets is very interesting and could have some potential because of future use of similiar equipment (laser target designator's for allied aircraft on future EU misssion) by Army personnel deployed while possible operating with EU RRF etc.. either in future training exercises or while operating in Fluid situations e.g a conflict situation.

[yooklid]

Don't the Brazilians arm their turcano's with Sidewinders?

[The Blue Max]

The Brazilian Super Tucano's usually carry the Pirianhia Short Range Air To Air Missile (SRAAM) it bears a very similiar apperance to the sidewinder and acourse a name that we are already well use to on this side of the water because of the Mowag Pirianhia's!!! I presume it is used for some form of Combat Air Patrol (CAP) use. Ive new question for the board could we see the PC-9M being used as some form of interim aircraft before another advaced one such as MAKO/M-346 Macchi could come into sevice in 5/10 years time as the PC-9M will be used over the next few years to build up more advanced trained pilots in flying tandem aircraft such as PC-9M along with addition of more advanced weapons on the aircraft???

[ForkTailedDevil]

The Brazilian AT-29 and A-29 Super Tucanos work as part of the Amazon Surveillance System (SIVAM). They carry Piranhas (also Sidewinder compatable) as part of their A2A contribution to the network, hunting down and if necessary shooting down drug running aircraft of the propellor powered variety guided onto the target by the R-99 AEW&C planes of the FAB. They also of course provide recon and A2G capability against ground targets and smugglers boats.

The Super Tucanos were developed to be an excellent weapons platform aswell as a trainer rather than just an after thought, which has left them with one and two seat version, FLIR turrets, .05cal wing guns and a proper, though still very short ranged , A2A ability. The Pilatus would have WVRAAM capability but the extra sensors and AEW&C back-up of the Super Tucano means it can punch above its weight.

The best platform the IAC have for deploying weapons from is the CASAs. I know for certain that Harpoons, Exocets and Mk46 torpedoes have been intergrated into other operators 235's but I'm sure thats not all that is currently intergrated or is capable of being integrated.