Up Gunning The Air Corp

[FMolloy]

Stay on topic lads, this thread is about improvements to existing aircraft.

[Aidan]

I know its an unweildly acronym but I prefer to use it and B(Beyond)VRAAM for a few reasons.

Its also out of date given that many IR guided 'short range' AAMs now have a marginal BVR capability, such as the ASRAAM and the IRIS T.

As for up-arming the AC, well as pointed out the facility is there with many of the current airframes to do so (specifically the Cn-235s), but the requirement really isn't. In any case, the air corps doesn't possess any aircraft that are 'combat' capable in real terms in a Western European context. Silk purse, sows ear etc.

[Silver]

Hi all its interesting about your ideas/proposals to upgun the IAC but is it wortwhile unless you are going to transition into something else eg close support/multi role aircraft.The future is staring us in the face,uavs are the way.In NZ we are looking closely at these for theRNZAF/NZ army for future operations.

Hi kiwi - welcome to the board !
I think you are the first 'Kiwi' on any Irish military board

Are there any plans to purchase a PC-9-type aircraft for the RNZAF?

Also, what UAV's are under consideration for Aeoteroa ?


BTW - You guys have some excellent aviation museums ! I visited 3 last year: Air Force World, Christchurch, NZ Fighter Pilots Museum, Wanaka and RNZAF Ohakea.

[ForkTailedDevil]

WVRAAM = Within Visual Range Air to Air Missile.

I know its an unweildly acronym but I prefer to use it and B(Beyond)VRAAM for a few reasons.

Anyway, UAV's for maritime surveillance. The USN, USCG and the Australians have investigated the use of Global Hawk variants for MP but have still are going to combine them with manned aircraft. Currently cost issues for UAVs still rule them out for most countries and the technology still isn't as mature as you would desire (especially for landing the damn things). If no-body minds me posting a link, this article proves interesting reading on current and future MPAs and use of UAV in the MP role.

http://www.aiaa.org/aerospace/Articl...hiveIssueID=25

[FMolloy]

WVRAAM = Within Visual Range Air to Air Missile.

[The Blue Max]

What Exactly does WVRAAM mean?? From speaking to a senior officer of an very important aspect of the Air Corp. That the Air Corp would more than welcome the addition of additional CASA Cn235 but that the two already in service already provide excellent coverage. Would be more realistic in the future to see UAV maritime dedicated aircraft such as the HERMES or similiar which also have an armed capabilty flying as part of 101sqn or what is general view/board of the board on the future of maritime survailance ops??

[ForkTailedDevil]

The Brazilian AT-29 and A-29 Super Tucanos work as part of the Amazon Surveillance System (SIVAM). They carry Piranhas (also Sidewinder compatable) as part of their A2A contribution to the network, hunting down and if necessary shooting down drug running aircraft of the propellor powered variety guided onto the target by the R-99 AEW&C planes of the FAB. They also of course provide recon and A2G capability against ground targets and smugglers boats.

The Super Tucanos were developed to be an excellent weapons platform aswell as a trainer rather than just an after thought, which has left them with one and two seat version, FLIR turrets, .05cal wing guns and a proper, though still very short ranged , A2A ability. The Pilatus would have WVRAAM capability but the extra sensors and AEW&C back-up of the Super Tucano means it can punch above its weight.

The best platform the IAC have for deploying weapons from is the CASAs. I know for certain that Harpoons, Exocets and Mk46 torpedoes have been intergrated into other operators 235's but I'm sure thats not all that is currently intergrated or is capable of being integrated.

[The Blue Max]

The Brazilian Super Tucano's usually carry the Pirianhia Short Range Air To Air Missile (SRAAM) it bears a very similiar apperance to the sidewinder and acourse a name that we are already well use to on this side of the water because of the Mowag Pirianhia's!!! I presume it is used for some form of Combat Air Patrol (CAP) use. Ive new question for the board could we see the PC-9M being used as some form of interim aircraft before another advaced one such as MAKO/M-346 Macchi could come into sevice in 5/10 years time as the PC-9M will be used over the next few years to build up more advanced trained pilots in flying tandem aircraft such as PC-9M along with addition of more advanced weapons on the aircraft???

[yooklid]

Don't the Brazilians arm their turcano's with Sidewinders?

[The Blue Max]

Up Gunning The Air Corp

Thanks lads for all responses to the thread i taught it may bring some more light to the subject of the Air Corps full potential capability on some of their aircraft. Realistacally the PC-9M/EC-135 are/will mainly be used for training Defence Forces personnel for future work with some form of CAS aircraft either Fixed wing/Rotary on Internal/Overseas service and would such only be expected that armanents would repect that. I think FMolloy idea of Laser Designated Rockets is very interesting and could have some potential because of future use of similiar equipment (laser target designator's for allied aircraft on future EU misssion) by Army personnel deployed while possible operating with EU RRF etc.. either in future training exercises or while operating in Fluid situations e.g a conflict situation.

[kiwi1]

Hi all its interesting about your ideas/proposals to upgun the IAC but is it wortwhile unless you are going to transition into something else eg close support/multi role aircraft.The future is staring us in the face,uavs are the way.In NZ we are looking closely at these for theRNZAF/NZ army for future operations.

[FMolloy]

BAe are doing laser-guided 2.75" rockets. You could probably stick them in a PC-9's pods easily enough & have someone on the ground designate targets. But I doubt it would be worth it.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi all
Whilst there have been quite a few combats in which a slower, allegedly less capable aircraft has turned the tables on it's faster jet opponents, all have involved guns (Skyraider Vs. Mig 15, Mig-17 vs. F-4/F-105 and others), in very close-in dogfights. A PC-9 with Sidewinders could only hope to fend off the inevitable and realistically could only be used to either shoot down a slow commercial-class aircraft or a helicopter or a similar turboprop. With regard to rockets on small helicopters, the jury is out on them. The RAF tried them on the Gazelle in the Falklands and ditched them as unworthy of the effort. Possibly, the Hydra 70s on an MD500 work, but they're a better weapon than the old SNEBs. PC-9s can probably carry any standard NATO weapon that'll match the weight profile of the pylon and have the appropriate technology in the cockpit to fire and track them. No point in whacking off a Hellfire and keeping an eye peeled on where it's actually going. Apart from all that, if they bought more advanced arms for the PC-9s, they'd have to find somewhere to train with them.Can't see Finance accepting a story that they have to go to Lulworth or wherever every week for the next decade!
regards
GttC

[pym]

by way of example:

Boeing 767, max cruising speed 898 km/h at 39000ft

PC-9M Cruise Speed 500km/h at sea level, 556km/h at 6100m. (and probably much slower with munitions)

Trying to intercept anything without an internal radar, with a massive speed and height disadvantage, leaves very little window, in the even slimmer instance that there is one, to shoot a sidewinder at a passenger airplane. Its an absolute non starter in my opinion.

[yooklid]

Without meaning to be facetious,

They may be required to shoot down an airliner at some point