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  • #31
    The Mako is already projected to be very expensive, and the other factor is it still has not even flown. I know we're looking to the long term, but pinning it solely on an airframe that hasnt even reached the prototype stage would be a mistake. The already flying alternatives are aircraft like: M-346/AMX/A/T-50 or taking a step further and getting something like a Grippen, and doing the LIFT training abroad - like for instance the Luftwaffe.

    Comment


    • #32
      That is very true the EADS MAKO (ALCA) is at development stage and it is quite likely looking at recent reports that it may not even reach full production stage so I would agree the only other Two real modern ALCA aircraft would be the Aermacchi MB-346 or the KAI A-50 or its training equivilant the T-50 which is being designed as fer as I know to replace the F-5Es that are still in operation.

      ~I agree that possible a Bombadier Global Express aircraft along with a C-130J-30 would provide a mdern MATS/TAT (Tactical Air Transport)

      ~Beech B200 King Air should be replaced by a Casa Cn235 for multi engine training and general utility transport etc..

      ~The Reims Cessne should be replaced by Two/Three Pilatrus PC-12M for Enviriomental Inspection,Survailaince,MATS,and general utility,Target Towing etc..
      These are just a few suggestions/examples how No.One Operation Wing Could be in a the near future. What is the Bosrd opinion on theses suggestions?
      British officer: You're seven minutes late, Mr. Collins.
      Michael Collins: You've kept us waiting 700 years. You can have your seven minutes.

      [As the British flag comes down]

      Michael Collins: So that's what all the bother was about.

      Comment


      • #33
        Ireland has no requirement for jet fighter type aircraft. Irish defense doctrine for the foreseeable future is centered on:

        - domestic support in the form of disaster response, anti-terrorism, anti-drugs/guns/people smuggling, environmental protection, etc.
        - operating as a component of the evolving EU Battlegroup system for rapid deployment on international missions, with Sweden and Finland as the most likely core partners
        - Contributing within a UN/EU framework to international disater relief and humanitarian missions such as the Pakistan earthquake, Darfur, etc.

        Ongoing Defence Force modernization is focused on these capabilities, particularly the international dimension, hence the new armored vehicles, etc. for the army and the new Support Ship for the naval Service.

        Current IAC requirements are:

        - four more AB-139's for a total of eight - the minimum to provide a deployable detachment of up to five that can operate as part of a multi-national Support Helicopter Force in support of the Battlegroup.
        - Credible airlift, with a CN-235 or C-295 as the minimum and a C-130J-30 s the preferred solution. There are no more viable C-130H airframes left inteh world to modernize. The airlifter will operate as a component of the emerging European Airlift Force, coordinated from Eindhoven - in which Euro airlift capabilites jointly support EU missions in a coordinated fashion. Purchase would include some substantial EU subsidy in return for commitment to the EU Airlift Force.
        - Mid-life upgrade for the CN-235MPA's, bringing them to 300 standard, with C-295 avionics if necessaryfor standardization if a 295 is purchased.
        - A MATS replacement for the GIV. The government prefers the Airbus A-319CJ Corporate Jet or Boeing BBJ. Either of these would be a grotesque waste in that they would cost around $US60M and would mostly sit on the ramp. Preferred option is a new Bombardier Global 5000 in conjuctions with a C-130J-30 purchase.

        An alternative is the Boeing 737-700C/QC, for Quick Change, which, in addition to carrying VIP's with a palletized VIP fit, could carry eight cargo pallets, or 128 pax, or three pallets and 70 pax. Of course this would put paid to a C-130J and would require a CN-235/C-295 for European and in-theater tactical airlift and support to special forces. Certainly an acceptable alternative considering Irish requirments. I have no problem with a new MATS jet - only if buying it precludes satisfying the legitimate military airlift requirement inherent inteh government's defence policy. If they want to buy an ACJ that's fine, but only if they also buy a C-130J-30. Not much chance of that. Bear in mind that MATS aircraft are NOT purchased with Air Corps funds.

        A simplistic breakdown of costs:

        B737-700C/QC (identical to US Navy C-40A Clipper) - $US60M
        C-130J-30 - $US65M
        Global 5000 - $US35M
        CN-235-300 - $US20M
        C-295 - $US25M

        Comment


        • #34
          The White Paper on Defence (2000):

          Overseas Role
          4.10.15
          The Government have decided that the State will not seek to commit Air Corps
          equipment resources to an overseas operation. In a situation where there are many
          demands on resources it would not be reasonable to participate beyond the domestic
          context.

          Comment


          • #35
            Dev,

            I do not believe this statement from the 2000 White Paper is still operative, though there has been no public admission of that, yet. I suspect the current view is for an "approipriate" commitment in line with doctrine and reflecting a credible level of support to EU military programs and other international commitments, i.e., a Support helicopter capability and an airlift capability. Government wrestling will continue over language, funding, etc.

            If the IAC fails to field an international support capability then why bother with an AC as part of the Defense Force - turn the whole effort into a contractor operation working for the Garda or the Ministry of something or other. Otherwise we have an AC devoted to serving as an army training aid, a VIP flight service, an air ambulance service and, sadly, a flying club to perform at air shows.

            Comment


            • #36
              Hi BlueMax
              Replace a Casa with an ATR-sized aircraft for basic multi-engine training? Don't think so. I wouldn't give a Casa to someone who's never flown a twin before.The best, cheapest replacement for 240 would be a C-90.They badly wanted to keep the white Casa, 250, but that was knocked on the head....PC-12s for surveillance? Not sure about that? They're not really designed for lurking around the bottom of the speed range. Do they have any active service anywhere as surveillance aircraft? Better as a light cargo (para/ARW/evac) lifter than faffing around over cash escorts.A helicopter with a camera is better, or another Defender or Caravan.
              Jets...more electronic rain forest consumed writing about jets! Forget any kind of combat jet bigger than a trainer.Unless the budget grows out of all proportion or a zillionaire donates a few airframes, it's not going to happen.
              regards
              GttC

              Comment


              • #37
                I think the Casa proposal was recommended under the white paper to replace the Beechcraft King Air but I could be mistakenPilots would be able to progrss from Pilatrus PC-9M to PC-12M Eagle and onto the Casa Cn235 (the PC-12M EAGLE would provide newly commisioned Cadets/Officers to progress first to the Modern avionics/cockpit of a side by side aircraft and then on to the Casa, though failing thta I would love to see the Raytheon/Beechcraft 1900D a modern derivitive of the B200 class as it overs better perfomance etc... The Pilatrus PC-12M would is easily capable of preforming a number of tasks such a para introduction training,MATS,Target Towing and most importantlythe new role the Air Corp are planning to take on of Airborne Enviriomental Patrol which the aircraft is more than suitable for. Oh and about Cash Escort we should get a few more of those UAVs (Unpilotled Aircraft) that they wnt and let some sergeant control it from a Commamd Post (CP) in a Barracks or similiar? Realistically the in t6he next ten years or so the Air Corpwould most likely be operating Eight to Ten Advanced Light Fighters such as the EADS MAKO or similiar.
                British officer: You're seven minutes late, Mr. Collins.
                Michael Collins: You've kept us waiting 700 years. You can have your seven minutes.

                [As the British flag comes down]

                Michael Collins: So that's what all the bother was about.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by The Blue Max
                  I think the Casa proposal was recommended under the white paper to replace the Beechcraft King Air but I could be mistakenPilots would be able to progrss from Pilatrus PC-9M to PC-12M Eagle and onto the Casa Cn235 (the PC-12M EAGLE would provide newly commisioned Cadets/Officers to progress first to the Modern avionics/cockpit of a side by side aircraft and then on to the Casa, though failing thta I would love to see the Raytheon/Beechcraft 1900D a modern derivitive of the B200 class as it overs better perfomance etc... The Pilatrus PC-12M would is easily capable of preforming a number of tasks such a para introduction training,MATS,Target Towing and most importantlythe new role the Air Corp are planning to take on of Airborne Enviriomental Patrol which the aircraft is more than suitable for. Oh and about Cash Escort we should get a few more of those UAVs (Unpilotled Aircraft) that they wnt and let some sergeant control it from a Commamd Post (CP) in a Barracks or similiar? Realistically the in t6he next ten years or so the Air Corpwould most likely be operating Eight to Ten Advanced Light Fighters such as the EADS MAKO or similiar.

                  do you honestly think that the corps will have a mako class aircrft in the next ten years?i really really doubt it.oh and i dont mean to be ignorant or cheeky because i hate when people try to correct me but pilatus is spelt pilatus not pilatrus!its just i always see it spelt like that in your posts!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Thanks for advice I will keep it in mind and yes I do believe in the next 10/12 years there will be some form of modern fighter in the class of the Mako or similiar.
                    British officer: You're seven minutes late, Mr. Collins.
                    Michael Collins: You've kept us waiting 700 years. You can have your seven minutes.

                    [As the British flag comes down]

                    Michael Collins: So that's what all the bother was about.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Jets
                      Jets
                      Jets
                      Jets
                      Jets
                      Jets
                      Jets
                      Jets
                      Jets
                      Jets
                      Jets
                      Jets
                      Jets
                      Jets
                      Jets
                      Jets
                      Jets
                      Jets
                      Jets
                      Jets

                      Where is that vallium again?


                      Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        There is nothing wrong with thinking about jet based air defence, providing that people are prepared to look at the overall picture and recognise the enormous amount of work involved in preparing for the operation of these jets, long before the tender is writtten for same........
                        "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
                        Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
                        Illegitimi non carborundum

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          well it is possible, we are talking 10-12 years down the road here.
                          Goldie, your valium

                          What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Hi all
                            As an example, the Hungarians are taking the Gripen into service and expect to take five years before the first squadron will be operational,to NATO standards.Five years! they'll be half-obsolete by then and half of the personnel will have left the Air Force.It's an uphill struggle to integrate a new aircraft and all it's back-up,and that's on a good day, with a following wind and the sun is shining....how long did the AC plan ahead for the purchase of the PC-9s? How long does it take the Navy to lead-in a new ship?
                            Being a card-carrying cynic,I'd be surprised to see the Don prepare for and then integrate a fighter any time soon.
                            regards
                            GttC

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              It should also be pointed out that the Hungarians have operated fast jets for decades, and thus have much of the infrastucture already in place. They also have aircrew who have a significant number of hours in a number of jet types, a defence organisation that is aware of how these aircraft should be used, the costs involved, and the training requirements.

                              None of these things exist in Ireland. It would take 10 years, at best, from the inception of any programme to obtain fast jets before they would be operational in any meaningful sense. And a hell of a lot of money.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                More helicopters and transport planes would be a lot more pratical than jets. The UK is getting the eurofighter and can continue to provide us with air cover and has access to american and uk intelligence. So if they dont know were screwed anyway. Still if they were going to buy jets i wouldnt say no :D

                                More medium lift helicopters and with 2 or 3 C-130s(stretched, J model is it?) would do me

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