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  • #16

    Missed those posts while typing the last one ...

    Hmm, perhaps CQ was in the library of a college that has exams in January?


    • #17
      I was always under the impression that CQ went to a REAL university like I did, where things like exams in January didn't happen. University Libraries are great places to meet women though, maybe that's what he was at?

      Talking about helicopters, there are too few of two many types in the post by CQ. A force of six medium helicopters for the SAR role, four for the medium lift for army support, eight utility in the A-109M class and three/four A-109 for naval ops on helicopter patrol vessels sounds about right.

      As for PPP, if that happens then the air corps looses all its techies, which would be bad, and the pilots play into the departments hands. Every pliot in the air corps is a commissioned officer, which is expensive and wasteful. Virtually every other air corps in Europe allows NCO's and Warrent officers to fly helicopters and light aircraft, why not the irish air corps? Do you need any training as an officer to fly an air ambulance mission?


      • #18
        There are good design reasons that the F-16 has one engine, one being that the designers would not have been able to meet the range requirement with two engines.

        If we eliminate SAR from the roles of a new larger helo for the AC, what types, other than the ones in the competition, might be contenders?


        • #19
          If you could aquire a liscence to build the MIG-29 and fit it with the avionics ( but keep its IRST)of say the F-18C you'd make an excelent multi-roler.
          The MIG-29 is a superb fighter the only thing letting it down is its avionics. And to correct the specs in an earlier post the aircraft is air-to-air refuelable.

          Still though you require a hell of a lot more training to fly helos would letting senior NCOs be a good idea?


          • #20
            Can't comment for C-Q, just that UL seemed to fit ...

            Yeah, libraries were great, but generally only as exam time looms ... Computer labs were always good too, particularly for foreign students around Christmas ...

            The whole PPP thing smacks a bit of ideology driving policy just a /bit/ too much, by all means liberalise the Rail, bus, energy and comms companies, but the Air Corps? The Air Corps will fight very hard to retain their techies though, if they lose those they might as well quit and go home and they know it. Thats why I mentioned that the AIII replacement might well be an outright purchase, as a counterbalance to the more expensive Medium lift option. Then again, if the first PPP works out it’ll be hard to persuade people otherwise.

            As for NCO's flying, I think the important question for those concerned is: would they get to use the pilots/officers mess?

            And F-R

            "The MIG-29 is a superb fighter the only thing letting it down is its avionics" ... and the engines, lack of range, crap weapons, poor cockpit design, very poor service and support, poor build quality and no multi-role ability. Apart from that its ok ...


            • #21
              I was n't taking the piss regarding the MIG29 just trying to highlight the overdependance on the FI6

              Tes eastern block gear is a bit didgy at the best of times but with the right support and service it would be great for what is quickly becoming a non existant aircorps.The amount of helos in operation across the world which came out of eastern Europe far out weighs the western stuff..,Parts and sevice and training no problem.Beggars can't be choosers.
              Covid 19 is not over's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe


              • #22

                Since when has UL been a real university?

                Flying rifleman,

                lots of NCO are as, if not more intelligent than officers. Any idiot can use a knife and fork. As for using the mess, is it necessarily a good thing to have officer's messes anymore?


                Intresting question. If there is no need for a long range sar capability, then the future of helicopter operations, apart from the light utility role, is under question. You could get medium helis for troop transport by arguing that since you operate them for SAR, you might as well get a few more for troop transport, disaster relief operations overseas, etc because you already operate them ( remember the utility S-92 were only options, not a firm order). But if you take away that role, justifying buying something, unless there is a purpose like committing them to overseas service, is difficult to justify to the Dept. of finance.

                If i was a civil servant in the department of finance I'd argue that adances in UAV/simulators over decade have been outstanding, more is bound to come. Predator can carry out reconnaissance duties, it can carry helfire missiles and attack targets the next generation of UAV will be able to carry more, are expendable, pilots/operators can be trained on simulators, cutting down on running costs, as you only need to fly machines on actual missions, so they can be stored when not needed, the pilots training on realistic computer programmes. Therefore, there is no need for the air corps to develop or retain a fixed wing capability, since in 2030, fixed wing aviation will have evolved to such an extent that it would be pointless/obsolete. Casa's can be flown by civilian pilots from Shannon, and maintained by the private sector, therefore you can sell off Baldonnel as an airport for the south side, getting rid of no 1 wing.

                Then postulate that events in northern ireland have changed vastly since the late 1960's and after virtually a decade of an IRA ceasefire, this time lapse, and given that the grievences of the late 1960 have been resolved, along with war weariness and a return normality that the peace process have brough about makes an IRA return to violence extremly unlikely. Given that SAR is civilianised, and that there is absolutedly no threat of invasion, you question the need to retain helicopters, since they carry out civilian tasks, there is no real need to transport large number of men rapidly, point out that many of the missions the air corps carries out on the island are either civilian in nature, or overlap with the GASU. Therefore, while the army might need helicopters, you argue that it would be cheaper to lease them from the private sector, they can carry out maintence, etc. Then further argue that if only officers can fly, sending cadets to the Curragh for seven months to before they learn to to fly is wasteful, so why not use civilian pilots flying civilian helicopters that carry out essentially civilian tasks. Bang, got rid of the entire air corps.

                Before anybody thinks that I'm extracting the urine, I might remind you that in 1959, Britain had a number of aeroplane programmes, like TRS-2, and lots of aeroplane manufacturing companies. Then in 1959, the British ministry of defence comes along and states that the RAF would operate no manned warplanes after the Lightning, and would use missiles to replace them. Therefore they cancelled all their aerocraft programmes in development, and when they changed their mind not that soon afterwards, the British aviation industry had virtually colapsed, and while somebody might say Hawk/BAE, where is the British equivelent to Dassault/SAAB/Rafale or JA-37/JAS-39?. The treasury knew it was an insane idea and warplanes would be needed in the late 1960's, but it saved an absolute fortune; they sold it by saying that it was forward looking and progressive.


                • #23
                  For once and for all I was referring to the preceding 36 hours and no further in the library.
                  Bah I never should have changed my name from arabic....and UL wtf? another jockfactory no thanks pal.
                  NCO pilots are a great idea, they would not only allow the air corps the best pilots as opposed to the best from a suitable middle class rugby/GAA playing background but their presence would severely challenge the cushy lifestyles of those who think they've got a nice little earner running the don into the ground and playing golf with a certain well known businessman.
                  Also it might bring a stop to enlisted A/C personnel being treated like dogsbodies regardless of their tech skills, I'm pretty sure that most mates[ RE: people who actually recognise me as a human being] I have in the army would just up and leave if they were treated the way some folk in BD are.
                  And having known an A/C cadet or two in recent years I've heard some fairly frightening stories about soon to be commisioned idiots who couldn't handle a knife and fork (etiquette training and all that), down with the old boys clubs.

                  Paul G I once again must admit that your list is superior to mine, I guess three wholly different airframes is too much for 50 men to maintain.
                  RE: women in libraries I'm spoken for, by a person who I didn't meet in the library- in a strange contrast to the admittedly nice selection of womenfolk in the lib the GYM is always full of mingers
                  "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke


                  • #24
                    UL became a real university when the local mammies started sending Johnny and Mary to UCC because UL was "too hard".

                    As long as we have a civil sevice that is willing to gut defence capabilities to satisfy the accountants, then the defence forces will be on the back foot as regards capability. Is there anyone in government, do you think, that is on the side of the df? I read in a book on the df about civil servants in the DoD being scandalised when it was suggested to them that they should push for increased spending on the df. They replied that that was entirely a matter for the Dept. of Finance.

                    So, no helicopters for the army. Do we really need Pirhanas then? Arty (what's the difference between an army and a militia?), mortars, we could get away without m203s couldn't we? Ah shur, mush me arse, God love her.

                    100 million euro extra a year would transform the df with in five years and actually add value to the money spent on pay and allowances, etc. And 100 million euro is NOTHING. Seven and a half times that was wiped off the value of the value of the National Pension Fund (I don't care about interest earned and reduction in value of stock offsetting each other).

                    You might as well be talking to the wall.


                    • #25
                      Aidan reminded me about the classic comment about the MiG-21:

                      "The MiG-21 is a fine aircraft, able to carry both fuel and weapons, but not at the same time."


                      • #26
                        The Piranhas are there for overseas peace support. the air corps problem is that it doesn't have that outlet. The army can justify Piranhas and things like the javelins by pointing out to their overseas role. The equipment needed for the EU-RRF to equip a battalion properly is still on course, despite the cutbacks.

                        After going to my old wardrobe and putting my helmet on in anticipation of being shot at, I must admit that Smith has done a lot more then most; we might hate him, but he has done something, and who else can name another minister of defence? From my own experience i know that it is extremly difficult to suggest spending money on a project when you know that most people at the meeting think its an absolute waste that could be better spent elsewhere.

                        Working 36 hours in two days is nothing son, wait till you get out into the real world.


                        • #27
                          I've been there didn't like it thats why I want to join the Army....I prefer 8 hour days with the occasional period of all out war

                          You knw I'd normally agree about the minister but I found his comments in the sunday tribune hard to swallow; something along the lines of we don't believe in buying weapons we believe in investing in peace.

                          The only people who can attest to Irish peace investment in effect are the Glencree reconciliation centre (E 2m) and the residents of at-tiri right after the AML-90 uninvited the SLA halftrack, I mean fair enough we are not a militarist state (thank god) but this is not a statement I welcome from the man with chief responsibility for the purchase of armaments and the maintenance of the armed forces of this state for the best meeting of the states security needs.

                          "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke


                          • #28
                            True what about harriers and eh101 coparitly modren with acceptabbble service records
                            Covid 19 is not over's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe


                            • #29
                              Paul G, UL isn't a University in the classical sense, its a degree factory ... and thats from former colleagues of mine who now teach there (and used to lecture elsewhere). They compare it to an advanced secondary school. It fills a role, delivers well trained and eminently qualified graduates to employers, just so long as they're not supposed to be able to think for themselves ... :p

                              As for "willing to gut defence capabilities to satisfy the accountants" ... therein lies the rub, the AC never provided even a rudimentary defense capability, there is nothing substantial there to gut. As CQ said in his first post, all that ever existed was an Army support organisation in the manner of a 50/60s European Army. Looking at it from a purely financial perspective, if one were sitting around a table in D/Finance, all the AC does is provide some limited services (like some SAR, limited army support) that could possibly be more cheaply delivered by the private sector. As Paul says, how would you justify spending more money on something like this when there are other pressing concerns? Introducing a concept as nebulous as 'defence' is only going to raise the question ... "who's going to attack us?". Defence falls into the category of 'nice to have' for most people.

                              And CQ, as for Smiths comments ... you've said it yourself, what do you expect? there are few votes in defence in this country, primarily because theres no public consciousness that its even an issue. Theres loads of votes in "lovey dovey peace to all men" type messages though. It has to be said that the DF have done better as regards investment under him than under anyone else previously, I mean, it could be worse, at least the RRF participation is going ahead. The Army will have 65 PIIIs in a few years, with an AML-90 replacement to follow. He might term it "investment in peace", what it means on the ground is arms purchases, even if they are limited in scope.

                              Who knows, the AIII might even be replaced at some stage in the future too. Considering the first three airframes are theoretically 40 years old this year.


                              • #30
                                Indeed UCD is described in a similar sense by a lecturer I know? It's hardly suprising that this state is full of sausage factories, I mean you just describe dexactly the type of self obsessed morons they produce (i.e. the electorate.)
                                What I fear is more likely is that an AIII or two might fall out of the sky on some cute children/puppies and give the perfect ewxcuse to disband the AC for good.
                                "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke