Agusta Westland AB139 for Irish Air Corps

[hptmurphy]

If they were looking for medium lift.... which they weren't!

they really didn't know what they were looking for....

Was never in the running. It's proving to be a bit of a disappointment by all accounts. A leaked German Army report listed numerous deficiencies. Sweden who will operate sixteen have just ordered, you guessed it, Blackhawks due to delays with the NH90 program.

Can europe not build helos any more?

What was the story with merlins?.
__________________

[Jetjock]

NH90?

Was never in the running. It's proving to be a bit of a disappointment by all accounts. A leaked German Army report listed numerous deficiencies. Sweden who will operate sixteen have just ordered, you guessed it, Blackhawks due to delays with the NH90 program.

[DeV]

EH 90 was a better machine and a better size.

If they were looking for medium lift.... which they weren't!

[hptmurphy]

Black hawks were out of the price range but rated in the same category as UH 1s...and its derivatives almost diposable.

EH 90 was a better machine and a better size.

[Jetjock]

Operational evaluation? There was an operational evaluation?

And the AW139 won out?

That begs the question: what were the parameters?

[Tadpole]

I didn't bring anything up.
I just suggested that perhaps you aren't aware of the full circumstances of what did or didn't win the phase of the evaluation controled by Air Corps personnel and how you can actually find out.

Just out of interest which do you think is more operationally capable as a military transport helicopter?
Have you just answered the question?

[easyrider]

If you can't back it up, maybe you shouldn't have brought it up?

[Tadpole]

Please share.

Sorry, unfortunately not the forum for that.
However, Im sure that a correctly worded FOI would provide all the information you would like.

[easyrider]

Yet more ill informed speculation.
Do you know who was on the selection board?
While you know the outcome of the overall tender do you know the outcome of the operational evaluation?
Was it the same as the overall result do you think?

Please share.

[Tadpole]

The problem is that the Air Corps is run by pilots, who select aircraft mainly from a pilot's point-of-view. That should only be one of the considerations. When it comes to utility/transport helicopters, they're mainly flying trucks: their job is to carry people and cargo, so factors such as capacity, reliability, availability etc. should be the priorities. The Army - as the main customer - should have had a stronger role in selecting which heli to buy. Leave it to the pilots and they'll always go for the sleekest, the fastest, the one with the all the fancy widgets etc.

Yet more ill informed speculation.
Do you know who was on the selection board?
While you know the outcome of the overall tender do you know the outcome of the operational evaluation?
Was it the same as the overall result do you think?

[easyrider]

The problem is that the Air Corps is run by pilots, who select aircraft mainly from a pilot's point-of-view. That should only be one of the considerations. When it comes to utility/transport helicopters, they're mainly flying trucks: their job is to carry people and cargo, so factors such as capacity, reliability, availability etc. should be the priorities. The Army - as the main customer - should have had a stronger role in selecting which heli to buy. Leave it to the pilots and they'll always go for the sleekest, the fastest, the one with the all the fancy widgets etc.

[Goldie fish]

I think the recurring problem here is the tendering process, or some part of it, does not allow for a contract to be cancelled when it becomes clear that what is being delivered is not the same as what was specified.

[Tadpole]

Hi Sofa,
Not entirely true Im afraid.

Sikorsky also offered the S70 ADV which included 5 screen Rockwell Collins EFIS (as per S92) and a full 4 axis autopilot system. Of course it was more expensive but then again with what the 139s actually costed after modification to 'military' helicopters the gap closed. Too late though.

[sofa]

Poor civil servants getting blamed for a lot of stuff that wasn't their fault.
Discussions on that particular aircraft were going on in Baldonnel for a long time prior to any tender, in the end it was never physically evaluated due to a lack of suitable gearbox dry run capability. Hence, it wasnt even in the running by the time the 139 was picked.

More importantly the Blackhawks at the time did not come with a glass cockpit

so it was not to the Donners liking

[hptmurphy]

There was nothing hasty about the procurement process.

It was a case of civil servents making financial decisions beyond their aviation knowledge.

As usual.

Interesting that we could have been classed as the launch customer for an aircraft which wasn't really tried and tested and we did buy in haste with this particular aircraft rather than seeing how it would perform before buying.

It was an unknown quantity and to base almost your entire helicopter force on something which didn't have a proven track record was mindless to say the least, but we did the same with the Dauphin so its not that surprising.

The process and policy is there to see that every thing is compliant to the requirement of the end user, but in this case the end user wasn't going to get what it needed or wanted and yet again tried to combine the whole package in to one type , took a gamble and may have a heavy price to pay.