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Agusta Westland AB139 for Irish Air Corps

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  • If you read the post you'll see what i mean about the civvies. As for the helis, they have been here for about 6 months. As for heli ops, ask the wing, artillery and infantry just how much assistance they get from the fly boys. You'll find a common thread of thought about the AC. Like I said top down, they're just grunts at the end of the day, they do what they're told.
    Once more unto the breach, dear friends

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    • Originally posted by Saracen
      If you read the post you'll see what i mean about the civvies.
      No I don't see what load the Irish lights heli is lifting has to do with the price of cabbage. It might be relevent if the AC were actually operating the new helis, but they're not so there's no way of comparing one to the other.

      You've said that the AC won't be flying at night & won't be carrying anything over 300kg, where are you getting this info from? No one else, including the AC contributors to this board, has mentioned this before.

      Originally posted by Saracen
      As for the helis, they have been here for about 6 months.
      What in the name of God are you talking about? The AB139's are only being delivered now.

      Originally posted by Saracen
      As for heli ops, ask the wing, artillery and infantry just how much assistance they get from the fly boys.
      With the exception of artillery (the AC only had one heli capable of helping the artillery & even then only briefly) they've been getting a lot more since SAR went civillian, and this will be increased with the new arrivals.

      Originally posted by Saracen
      You'll find a common thread of thought about the AC. Like I said top down, they're just grunts at the end of the day, they do what they're told.
      Do you want to rephrase that so it makes sense?
      "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Vmax
        The orange marking around the windows are there to identify the emergency exits and will be permanent as I understand it. The orange frisbee type object to the rear of the heli is an Emergency Locator Transmitter.
        thought so, thank's VMAX
        Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?

        Dr. Venture: Dean, you smell like a whore

        Comment


        • Its was quoted in the indo article about "the new AW139 that has capabaility to be armed with Two x FN GPMG Machine Gunsaswell as other weapons"

          Does anybody what other types of weapons the aircraft are able/wired to carry?

          Are refering like of 12.7mm HMG Gun Pods or rocket pods etc??
          British officer: You're seven minutes late, Mr. Collins.
          Michael Collins: You've kept us waiting 700 years. You can have your seven minutes.

          [As the British flag comes down]

          Michael Collins: So that's what all the bother was about.

          Comment


          • F Molloy, firstly, the purpose of the post was to highlight the growing frustration with some aspects of the Air Corp, not to piss people off. I apologise for that.

            Second, I'm sorry for not being clearer in my posts but I'm working and can only view the site for five or ten minutes at time so I'm rushing.

            Flight operation parameters are determined by senior officers so I'm not ragging on the pilots.

            Comparing civvies is valid because they conduct the flight operations with underslung loads and night time flights.
            .
            Before delivery of any aircraft, personnel are sent on conversion/familarisation courses.

            The RAF were in Baldonnel two months ago running a training course on underslung loads. After the training was completed the AC were asked to do some runs with underslung loads. The most they would fly with was 300kg in which case they were told don't bother.

            In a recent exercise the AC were asked would they do a night time extraction involving simulated medivac and hostage rescue. The answer was no.

            Ask the ack ack boys what they think of the target towing provided by the AC. I hear its so bad they're looking at a civilian contractor.

            Now I could go on but I won't. I know the AC perform a hell of a lot of work that is generally unseen (and unappreciated) but in the main are seen as been generally unco-operative when it comes to military ops/exercises.

            I speak from personal experience. I hope that answers your questions.
            Once more unto the breach, dear friends

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Saracen

              The RAF were in Baldonnel two months ago running a training course on underslung loads. After the training was completed the AC were asked to do some runs with underslung loads. The most they would fly with was 300kg in which case they were told don't bother.
              The most any of the air corps aircraft can carry underslung, prior to the arrival of the AW139, is 500kg(with the EC135). 300kg, underslung from a new aircraft whose max underslung is 500kg in my opinion is pretty reasonable.

              Originally posted by Saracen
              In a recent exercise the AC were asked would they do a night time extraction involving simulated medivac and hostage rescue. The answer was no.
              Had they trained for a night extraction and hostage rescue, or was it just landed on their lap at the beginning of the ex? Night flying is a capability that takes a lot of training. It is only this year that I have heard of AC crews participating in training for "combat" night flying. Its something you don't want to risk a nearly new aircraft on, unless you have the crew fully trained. Allouettes are not capable of flying at Night.

              Originally posted by Saracen
              Ask the ack ack boys what they think of the target towing provided by the AC. I hear its so bad they're looking at a civilian contractor.
              This is not the Air Corps fault. This is the fault of the aircraft. The cessna is completely unsuitable for the job. Being based in Baldonnell doesn't help either. The Gear for hauling the drogue causes serious wear and tear on the airframe, and all other equipment must be stripped out beforehand.

              Originally posted by Saracen
              Now I could go on but I won't. I know the AC perform a hell of a lot of work that is generally unseen (and unappreciated) but in the main are seen as been generally unco-operative when it comes to military ops/exercises.

              I speak from personal experience. I hope that answers your questions.
              I have lost count of the number of RDF courses that I have seen photos from in recent times that didnt have Air Corps helis teaching troops about heliops. Given the reluctance of the PDF for the most part to allow the RDF train in their shiney new equipment, the Air Corps have been fantastic in making aircraft available to train on. Perhaps your experience is dated?


              Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

              Comment


              • Fair point, but I doubt that two months is dated.

                The EC-135 MTOW "notional" external load is 1500kg. 20% is a very low lift factor.

                The Night Ex in question, as I wasn't the SO3 involved so I don't know what tasking was given to the AC, I just know that there was a lot of unhappy bunnies when the answer came back.

                I appreciate Night flying requires a lot of training. The AC is a military organisation.

                As for other units experience with the PDF/AC, I can't comment. I can only make the points based on my experiences this year.
                Once more unto the breach, dear friends

                Comment


                • Give them time and i'm sure they will provide the service required of them.These type of operations are quite complex in nature, something the aer corp probobly hasn't done for some time, I'm sure some crew members are still getting use to their new heli's.You have to learn to walk before you can run.

                  Comment


                  • The skills being asked of the AC's helicopter pilots cannot just appear overnight, they've got to get used to the new aircraft before they can use them to their full potential. AC pilots want this as much as anyone, have a look for recent posts from Scorpy & this is obvious.

                    Like I said, give them a chance before dissing them.
                    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

                    Comment


                    • What is the maximum load that can be slung under an AB139/AW139?

                      Comment


                      • MTOW is 2778kg but as any pilot will tell you they will never be close to that.
                        AW 139 should be capable of lifting the 105mm light artillery gun, 1858kg, plus crew and ammo.
                        I believe this was one of the criteria in selecting this type of helicopter.
                        Once more unto the breach, dear friends

                        Comment


                        • The criteria (not like they were buried under 2 years of posts or anything)

                          22. External Load Lifting Equipment

                          The helicopter must be capable of being fitted with an external load lifting system and should be capable of lifting a minimum external load of 1000 kgs. Such an external load lifting system must be part of the tendered helicopter package. Weights of fixed provisions required for this system must be provided in the tender response.

                          http://www.irishmilitaryonline.com/b...75&postcount=3


                          Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Saracen View Post
                            MTOW is 2778kg but as any pilot will tell you they will never be close to that.
                            AW 139 should be capable of lifting the 105mm light artillery gun, 1858kg, plus crew and ammo.
                            I believe this was one of the criteria in selecting this type of helicopter.
                            It said it was able to in An Cosantoir

                            Comment


                            • Hi all
                              A lot of noise is being made here about what can or cannot fly at night or what can or cannot be lifted....Alouettes can fly at night, perfectly well, as the aircraft is unable to tell the time of day. Alouettes cannot fly in conditions of known icing, especially not at night and are not equipped for flight in Instrument conditions. the instruments on the Alouette's panel are not NVG-compatible. The EC and AWs, on the other hand, are fully IFR-capable but, like many,many other helicopters, are not allowed to fly in potential icing conditions because they do not have de-icing/anti-icing equipment on their rotor blades.A helicopter with ice on it's rotors is doomed, therefore helicopter pilots do not fly in such conditions.That's not an Air Corps limitation, it's a world-wide limitation.... As for the request for a night extraction exercise, if it was ad-hoc and unplanned and the route in and out was unfamiliar, forget it. No heli pilot would risk it.... As for civvie load-lifting, you'll find that they strip out the seats,etc and fly with minimum fuel for the job. Incidentally, the Alouettes were used to carry the 120mm mortar. How much do they weigh?. I'd give the AW crews a bit more time to get familiar with their aircraft before risking them on heavy loads...as regards the target-tugging, give the Donners a more powerful aircraft or else hire in civvies. The 172 was always limited and the pilots hated it's sluggish behaviour with the drogue equipment aboard.....I agree that there are many things that civvies do better than the military and that the military are slow to learn, but it cuts across all Services. If you want to waste your breath, I suggest you try bringing civvie ideas into the DF. Unless you're an Officer and you can absolutely prove that it will save money, you haven't a prayer.
                              regards
                              GttC

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by The Blue Max View Post
                                Its was quoted in the indo article about "the new AW139 that has capabaility to be armed with Two x FN GPMG Machine Gunsaswell as other weapons"

                                Does anybody what other types of weapons the aircraft are able/wired to carry?

                                Are refering like of 12.7mm HMG Gun Pods or rocket pods etc??

                                The helicopter should be armed with two crew operated mini guns. A GPMG is not sufficent

                                Comment

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