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Agusta Westland AB139 for Irish Air Corps

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  • Originally posted by Turkey View Post
    That would not be a bad idea, at least for the present, but the latest word I have is that the A111's will be gone sometime this year.
    *sigh* if only.......

    *daydreams of being a Reserve Air Corp pilot.....*
    If you have to do it, you always have to do it right. Either it makes a difference, or it’s good practice so that when it does make a difference, it gets done right.

    -Me.

    Comment


    • The A3 fleet will be retired in August. From late March, 139s will be taking over many, but not all of the military taskings. Personnel using the aircraft for the first time will have to go through a briefing and rehearsal session before any mission proper, even if they have done Alouette drills in the past. The is no discrimination between PDF and RDF units when it comes to heli ops. Both groups are required to carry out the same training and to demonstrate an equal level of proficiency before they are allowed to fly at all. As I said, patience, the training will be introduced, but don't expect to have one arrive and jump in without being shown the ropes again. Everyone, from the coy commander to the basic recruit will do exactly the same training with the airframe and if they get it wrong, they will be debriefed to the same extent. If they are still alive and kicking. Helicopters are pretty unforgiving to work around, and if someone who is experienced can make a mistake (see pic), someone who is inexperienced needs to take it slowly. Sorry for the gore.

      [MOD: Picture removed. No pictures from rotten.com, thank you.]
      Last edited by Barry; 4 February 2007, 21:50.

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      • that explains it a lot better

        that picture reminds me

        I must go visit the mother in law
        Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
        Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
        The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
        The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
        The best lack all conviction, while the worst
        Are full of passionate intensity.

        Comment


        • Training is needing when helicopters are used. I was present in Gormanston in the mid '80s when Inf were practising entry and exit of an A111. One guy managed to crack one of the clear panels (windows) with the flash eliminator of an FN. The aircrew were really pissed off about it. The helicopter had to return to Baldonnel for repairs, end of training. Helicopters were rarely available for Inf training and when they were incidents like this happened because of lack of training...

          Comment


          • Originally posted by B Inman View Post
            Training is needing when helicopters are used. I was present in Gormanston in the mid '80s when Inf were practising entry and exit of an A111. One guy managed to crack one of the clear panels (windows) with the flash eliminator of an FN. The aircrew were really pissed off about it. The helicopter had to return to Baldonnel for repairs, end of training. Helicopters were rarely available for Inf training and when they were incidents like this happened because of lack of training...
            Once I saw entries on a A111. For some reason both doors on both sides were open (Don't know why). A GPMG gunner ran up and threw the GPMG onto the A111 only to see it slide across the floor and disappear out the other door.

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            • Hi Binman
              Sometimes, the aircrew needed only the slightest excuse not to train with the DF. An Alouette can fly perfectly well with a crack in a piece of perspex. A spot of duty in real-world heli ops would soon educate people in how a heli can fly with lots of lead-induced holes in it.Getting precious about a crack in a small piece of perspex is sad, if nothing else.
              regards
              GttC

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              • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                Hi Binman
                Sometimes, the aircrew needed only the slightest excuse not to train with the DF. An Alouette can fly perfectly well with a crack in a piece of perspex. A spot of duty in real-world heli ops would soon educate people in how a heli can fly with lots of lead-induced holes in it.Getting precious about a crack in a small piece of perspex is sad, if nothing else.
                regards
                GttC
                You should try flying with the Ukranians in Liberia mate.Now thats "realWorld".
                As for being disappointed.Up yours.
                We have used the a3,s for so many years now that its getting boring doing the same drills over and over again.Their was alot of hype about the new helis.Lets see what they can do!

                (Having said all that Scorpy is right.Crawl -walk-run)
                (having said that why couldnt we use the 135,s?They only carry the same as an A3 where troops are concerened and they are allready in use for training troops.Too busy whisking bertie and co around no doubt!)
                "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                Comment


                • Was the EC135 ever destined for troop transport? Surely there would be no advantage, given that it carries the same amount of passengers as the Alouette, unless you just want to use one of the two machines as part of the shiney kit syndrome?

                  You have at least 3 alouettes available most of the time for training in troop transport at the moment. There are Two each of both AW139 and EC135. One EC135 is used as VIP transport. Like it or not, thats what its for. You don't get staff car mondeos for CIT either, but I don't hear you complaining.
                  Wait until we have 4 AW139s, or better again, 6. Then you can jump in and out of them as often as you like, and if you are a very good boy, they may even have a door gunner for you.


                  Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                    Hi there
                    All of the current pilots are experienced heli drivers with one or more types under their belts.Many are ex-dauphin pilots so they are well aware of the need to learn from the mistakes of the old heli and relearn the pure military aspect of the new ones.To the poster who was disappointed that he only had an Al.III to play with, well, pity about you.It's not that long ago that the only vehicle you would have jumped out of was a Bedford. Be thankful for small mercies.
                    regards
                    GttC

                    A pilot has to be type rated to fly an aircraft (eg the AB139), eg has to has x number of hours instruction (that would include emergency drills, exams etc) from an AB139 rating instructor.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
                      Was the EC135 ever destined for troop transport? Surely there would be no advantage, given that it carries the same amount of passengers as the Alouette, unless you just want to use one of the two machines as part of the shiney kit syndrome?

                      You have at least 3 alouettes available most of the time for training in troop transport at the moment. There are Two each of both AW139 and EC135. One EC135 is used as VIP transport. Like it or not, thats what its for. You don't get staff car mondeos for CIT either, but I don't hear you complaining.
                      Wait until we have 4 AW139s, or better again, 6. Then you can jump in and out of them as often as you like, and if you are a very good boy, they may even have a door gunner for you.

                      Why cant i play with the new toys whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy????
                      p.s patronising git :wink:
                      "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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                      • Hi all
                        Apod, I fly and fix aircraft regularly in the real world so I know what I'm talking about.I also know from experience that certain heli bods have contrived to avoid serving the ground-pounding brethren, in the past.Apart from that, Goldie is right about shiny-kit syndrome.In six months time, no-one will give a second glance at the 139s.....Dev, I know perfectly well that all heli pilots have to be rated on type.Who would you rather have doing a confined-space extraction, an oul sweat with Al III/Dauphin/Gazelle experience or a newbie with 10 hours on type? Right now, the policy of having experienced skippers on the 139s will benefit the troops. Less chance of cracking up the heli or hurting anybody. the young guys will just have to wait their turn.
                        regards
                        GttC

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                        • Hi all
                          Why would they bother training officers to fire the GPMGs, when they will never be tasked with the job? No other force in the world uses commissioned ranks to operate machine-guns as a primary task.
                          Personally, I'd rather they photocopied the US Army's manuals for heliborne ops and learned from the genuine experts instead of the usual making it up as they go along.
                          regards
                          GttC

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                          • Ok now this is starting to make sense.The usual defence forces policy of not trusting its own people.They put us through months of courses to qualify us to do our various jobs ,but when the crunch comes some officer always has to be there.
                            Both the pilots we had last week were LT.sI now know why the 139,s werent used.Going to the glen was probably low priority for the capts/comdts flying the new birds.Dirty detail,give it to the juniors!
                            "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                            Comment


                            • Hi there
                              The 139s are not being used for landings on unapproved sites (a direct quote from one of the senior pilots) until greater experience is gained. The younger pilots are hours-building on the Alouettes as always.As for commissioned gunners, the RAF did away with them after the savage losses suffered by it's bomber aircrew in the Forties.The only viable reason for keeping an officer as a gunner is if he becomes the gunnery leader with regard to post-holding and continuity of training.
                              regards
                              GttC

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                              • Both pilots were not Lts. If it is the job I'm thinking of (nice weather the first day, bloody fog the next) at least one was a captain. Nor are they hours building at the moment. Some of the remaining A3 qualified guys are there a long bloody time and it is because the 139 is sucking up so much manpower and attention, they cannot afford to have junior guys holding down the ops tasks. GTTC is right in one way, Officers are not suitable for DG appointments, but traditionally with any new task, one has to be trained to create all the doctrine, SOPs, manuals of training, syllabus etc. If he doesn't know the job, how can he do this? It is not the intention to continue training Officers to do this task routinely.

                                At the moment, anyone looking for a helicopter is bloody lucky to get one, because the availability of ops pilots to carry them out is massively limited. People are working hard to get the new machines up and running. The amount of paperwork, research, trial and error (hopefully more trial), coupled with all the attention it is generating and the obvious interest from some very senior brass must be a serious handful to deal with. On top of that, ops staff are bending over backwards to try to accommodate everyone. 301 squadron is locally known as 'can do squadron'. It kills them to say no to a task for any reason, but reality bites. Too much bread, not enough butter. At the moment. Give it time, things will settle down and normal service will resume, hopefully with more capability, effeciency, safety and enthusiasm from all sides.

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