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  • hptmurphy
    replied
    I agree a major incident to make somebody to stand up and take note..but realistically given the actually amount of time spent training in adverse conditions versus the cost..I reckon it could be a long queue for a long time outside the stores door.

    And even then someone would quote the old adege..if its not raining..your not training!

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  • luchi
    replied
    Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post

    let the PDF or RDF make all the stands the want if they want guys to go on exercises and can't supply the issue kit..and if the individual has the foresight to turn up alternate kit..he should not be penalised..it should be noted he couldn't obtain what he required but should be credited for turning up witha suitable replace ment.
    .
    While I actually agree with everything you said there. Although I do not bother with GPS, I do carry other equipment like a good wheel brace high lift bottle jack and other recovery tools that are not normally found in the vehicles. There is no way I will sit in the Glen for hours waiting for recovery if I can help it.

    BUT
    My point all along has been. If there is an obvious short fall then it should be addressed. Who notes that basically you saved the day, that without your intervention and foresight some poor kid would have had to go home cos the weather was just too bad to let him participate.

    This is were I say it is the duty of the officer to bring it up the line. Yes, sign all the paper work and have the guys parade outside the closed stores if that what it takes. Then make sure that you have invited the GOC to witness that the guys are not getting all the gear that he publiclly said they would.

    Its no good pissing people off unless you piss the right people off and that the result is in your favour.

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  • hptmurphy
    replied
    "On a more serious note. On the Std cse I mentioned some of the perticipants were told the combat boots were not allowed as they were not issued. This is a blatent double standard as half the gear that they are expected to have is not issued."

    Funnily enough I had this issue with an RDf captain on a PSO he was the camp adujant a couple of years ago..he noted that I wasn't wearing issue webbing and various bits and peices......and wanted me dismissed from the morning parade as being improperly dressed....until I pointed out to him that his helmet although covered with the correct helmet cover was actually a British pattern helmet..lets just say his arguement died at that point and he finished his inspection of the parade there and then.

    Its about standing your ground and believeing although you may be wrong..you are being wrong for the right reasons.


    One of the photos from the 1916 commerations last year depicts a memeber of the ARW in his Ford 350 wearing a non issue type smock..while I don't claim to be at that level..but it was commented that if the whole DF turned up in non standard gear there might be an outcry,,,funnily enough nobody gave a shit what he wore for his own well being....why should I or any other individually be picked out for wearing what we deem the most suitable kit .

    Although I do agree for ceremonials there should be a uniform wearing of kit..but there again go against the grain as my dress No 1 boots are not RDF issue although they are naval service issue and are far more presenatble..and seemingly some individuals within the ARW have cottoned on to this fact as well.

    It goes back to being the best you can be and using what ever you can get away with and then having the balls to defend your case.

    I have never pulled guys working on exercises for the 'extras' they might bring..but I would be far greater annoyed if some guy couldn't perform because he hadn't made an effort.

    I'm not asking every one who gives a commitment above a certain level to buy all the gucci kit in sight but if a guy fails because he hasn't made the most basic of efforts to learn fom the people around him..and have the basic comforts..then I get a little pissed off.

    But thats just me..maybe its not tolerable with in other units...but with liscence in mine if you can fend for youself you will suceed. the Q will get all the relavemnt gear and issue it out but by some guys having the foresight to have there own it means the issue gear gets around to those who can't afford certain items...so is it all bad..my selfishness in buying my own kit allows those less commited to have the issue gear in short supply...and all the NCOs in my unit..plus the officers are like that

    makes for a good working relationship and respect for the guys who are actually prpared to put in some self sacrifice to help others

    take PLCE,,Pool stock allocates twenty issues to troop and a troop is twenty four if ror guys turn up in their own gear it ensures that four young fellas will have the gear they require because others have the foresight to see that the gear while may not alwys be available..it is always in short supply

    same with wet gear ..why should a kid be left standing in the rain because poolstock leaves him short but me having my own makes a set avaiable...think out side of the box!

    Young fellas get psiied of standing in the rain on checkpoints..its up to there NCOs not officers tthat these guys are looked after..you while obviuosly look after NO1 first share the knowledge the gear and the comfort stuff to make it easier for young guys..they learn from this..become more self sufficent..will ahve improved the next year and will not doubt pass on the info to the guys behind them.

    cav squadron maybe only 122 but never at any time does any memeber unit suffer becuse of shortage of rations cover or gear becuse we look after our own....easir said than done but samll units. like families , lead by example , you gain the repect and trust.

    If the recruit or two star sees the NCO making the effort he will be back next year emaulating the NCO.


    leadership skills and self less ness.

    let the PDF or RDF make all the stands the want if they want guys to go on exercises and can't supply the issue kit..and if the individual has the foresight to turn up alternate kit..he should not be penalised..it should be noted he couldn't obtain what he required but should be credited for turning up witha suitable replace ment.


    In the case of course let the DS staff take note of the kit which guys had to use as repacements and highlight theissue from there..afterall you have turend up to do the course its not your fault you ain't got the gear but might gain a little more sympathy if your prepared to amke a priavte issue to take your palce on the course.
    Last edited by hptmurphy; 24 June 2007, 22:30.

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  • luchi
    replied
    I don't think anyone cna argue with the idea
    Minimal outlay often makes life that whole lot easier
    But lets face it. If no-one ever took a stand about the non issue of equipment then the situation would only get worse.

    if each unit started to purchase DPM rain gear to make up what was lacking.
    I reckon that before long we would have about 10 different types. (I know it was said earlier that ***** stores hav loads ot this gear but its kept in the wrappers) What would happen then at shooting comps when each team has a different uniform and none the actual issued one?
    Pick the nicest patern and disqualify all other teams?

    On a more serious note. On the Std cse I mentioned some of the perticipants were told the combat boots were not allowed as they were not issued. This is a blatent double standard as half the gear that they are expected to have is not issued.

    So apart from being a pain in the ass and say "I wasn't issued" how do you get the message accross.
    Do you not think that if you even ocasionally make a stand that maybe some of the senior personell may start to do something about it?
    RDFRA are constantly "negotiating" but then are the COs of each unit and sub-unit putting the complaints up through the chain of command?
    If officers believe their supperior is not actioning requests surly they have a duty to their men to look for redress through the chain of command?
    (refere to RDF officers v FCA officers thread)
    Last edited by luchi; 24 June 2007, 21:37.

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  • hptmurphy
    replied
    Yeah..that why I have a recce corporal...

    Seriously The GPS is inavaluable as a back up but not as a primary navigational instrument.If I wasn't a competent navigator I wouldn't even attempt to use GPS.Its a good bit of kit..except in the Glen..where you can never get enough signals from satellite to be effective ..so its back to the good old silva and the map.

    Having my own gives me a chance to use it to practise my skills outside the RDF and has come in useful at times especially when I bring the family on holdiday to the wilds of Donegal and try to convince them I'm not lost.

    Also the purchase of the discovery series of maps for both recreational use and for military purposes is not a bad thing....I have all of them..very worthwhile outlay if you like to take holidays in Ireland , driving as road maps are very inconsistent.Being able to mark my own maps saves doing traces etc. Very time saving at O groups etc.Again unit specific....you don't realise how lacking the DF is as a whole until you are put in a situation where you have to work outside the norm.

    I'm not inferring that all ranks should have all things ..but with certain appointments with certain units its always good to be one step ahead of the system.

    Minimal outlay often makes life that whole lot easier.
    Last edited by hptmurphy; 24 June 2007, 19:46.

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  • Goldie fish
    replied
    A GPS is as useful as a map or compass, but is only useful when used with either of the other two. It replaces neither.
    However some people have an illogical fear of them.

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  • luchi
    replied
    Thats great, you don't have faith in your skills so buy a gps. I know gps is cool but what will you do in a reall situation when the gps net is shut down? Rely on some one else to do it for you?

    But you are right to some degree. And I think the prisoner might know that. I remember driving on an excersise to FD in Cork and after dropping troops off we went and got our breakfast rolls because we got no breakfast. Little comforts

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  • hptmurphy
    replied
    Originally posted by The Prisoner View Post
    There might be another reason why the chap in OG looks miserable!
    Em!!! its not a chap its girl..and she is wearing plce..as is the guy to the front with all the gear in the rear removed as a driver it is very uncomfortable..especially given the amount of time given behind the wheel.

    Why would I need a chest rig..ever tried spending three weeks in the front seat of a nissan..wearing PLCE or 58 pattern webbing..I did....it wasn't very comfortable so I aquired a rig which would be able to hold all I required..maps compass gps, first aid ,tae making facilities..without having to sit on it.Don't get me wrong..I also have a set of PLCE (modified) for times that I know I wont be spending long periods in vehicles and will be dismounted...eh..I bought that as well .

    As for the use of non standard wet gear....I ain't getting wet...and neither is anybody else who has any sense. The corporal female type has only a jacket rain gear green issue type and is soaking as there were no trousers available.

    When you do PSO operations with a Cavalry troop....often is the case you nedd a least four maps at the one go..as the areas covered can be up to 100 miles per day...GPS are required so as everybody is doing the same thing at the same time..plus motorolas...again these were a unit purchase.

    "There is no need to spend up to €300 on a gps. In my unit we have never come across GPS provided by the army."

    Funny thing is the 12th Battalion borrow ours to run courses....pretty standard item of kit these days in a lot of units.

    Belive it or not the unit finds them to be invaluable and bought a stock from unit funds.....to increase the effectiveness of our own Troop some of us bought private issue at a discount rate bbecause of the amount required.

    Its not walting around..or if it is there were approx three hundred others involved in the ex in same mode..most of which were PDF. This was the PDF PSO from 2004..with a reserve cav element and a very good imput from some reserve infantry platoons also.

    Ithink some people need to see beyond their own units concept of tactice in a very limited area close to base camp before the can criticize why we do things a lot differently and realise the roles of a cav squadron.

    This particular exercise was a seize and hold of a compound to wait for two companies of infantry to be landed at the compound by truck and by road.
    We had started at 3am in the rain driven to haulbowline ...30 miles...secured a drop off point for a platoon and then drove another 30 miles to meet the Trucked element..it still rained...eventually when all the infantry with AD and engineers arrived we had ben out of area for about nine hours and were retasked.....and it still rained...after they put in there attacks we escorted the whole lot back 16 hours after we had left.....and it was still raining.

    Sop you see where the personal comfort, the use of what ever you can get your hands on..the need for good navigation and coms come into place.

    And it is quite acceptable to us who carry out these things to some time having to dip into our own pockest to make life that little bit easier..and drier.!!!!

    "I bought a compass for €10 in aldi, it does the job."

    All well and good but it won't give you a 10 digit grid reference, bearing, and speed at a glance when you are travelling in a convoy of 6 vehicles at 50mph and haven't time to stop and take a look around..when some body is bleating down the radio in your ear looking for a grid reference and ETA at a certain location..instantainously.

    so while some units are revelling in the amount of integration they are involved in..some of us having being doing it for years and learning what is required and wahts practical from our PDF counterparts.My first Cav exercise with the Pdf predates the re rorg and integration by a bout 10 years I watched and learned from those who were doing the job for a living..none of them seem to have any complaints about me having my own kit and appreciate that I aquire it to give me better interoperabilty..it might not be the official type kit at all times but lets me get on with the job without otherd having to liten to me moan about the inadequacies of the system.
    Last edited by hptmurphy; 24 June 2007, 01:24.

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  • The Prisoner
    replied
    There might be another reason why the chap in OG looks miserable!

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  • Big Al
    replied
    As a cav head he may have more use for a chest rig than the rest of us

    however i do agree about walking around in non issue gear, the whole idea behind a uniform is to look uniform, but when you cant get issued it then the army lets itself down.

    I suppose if everyone turned up for the 1916 commemoration on O'Connell St in their own wet gear the whole issue would be sorted very quickly.....

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  • The real Jack
    replied
    Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Notice the guy in front of me with his own private purchase wet gear is also quite smug..while the person wearing the available pooled stock jacket is miserable.
    I have never had any problems with the issued wetgear, while it may not be gucci dpm or expensive goretex it does the job. If you buy equipment that we should be provided with you are encouraging CQ's to not issue the necessary equipment. Compasses were provided to units a few years ago but many were never returned when issued out. I bought a compass for €10 in aldi, it does the job. There is no need to spend up to €300 on a gps. In my unit we have never come across GPS provided by the army. From that picture it looks like you have no need for a chest rig. I cant see anybody else wearing 58 pattern or PLCE in that picture so why are you wearing a Chest rig? By walting around in non issue uniform and combat gear you make us look worse than we would wearing OG wetgear and 58 pattern.

    Why cant you use the quote tools like everyone else?

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  • hptmurphy
    replied
    "My point re: packing up and going home etc is that the powers that be would be delighted if the RDF was scrapped - full stop."

    Totally agree so why not just turn up the right gear and piss them off..a little bit of effort works wonders.


    "If you start by looking to buy rain gear etc you are going down a road that could lead to all sorts of crap. "

    certainly beats the shit out of getting wet though.

    As seen in the photo..it rained all day..I had spent a few quid..but I was dry....oh....The chest rig was my own purchase also..as were the boots and the gloves.

    Notice the guy in front of me with his own private purchase wet gear is also quite smug..while the person wearing the available pooled stock jacket is miserable.


    Point in case....I need a compass but the army dosen't issue me with one and expects me to read maps...so I buy one....the army requires me to read maps but they don't have enough to go around so I buy my own...the army requires me to use my maps..i have spent money on my maps..but the army doesn't provide me witha map case..i buy one to protect my maps...now on top of all that..I have the maps..the compass.. the case..but I really have no faith in my map reading abilities..so I need a GPS.....the unit has one...but..having my own increases my skill with the GPS..there fore I buy one...

    having the maps, the compass, the case, the GPs..I can now carry out my role as best I can because I have the kit to do so...so I won't look like a gobshite when some one sends me on a tasking that requires me to have all of the above...but the army hasn't got them.....lesson learned..if you think you need it to improve your ability to the job..buy it!!!
    Last edited by hptmurphy; 23 June 2007, 00:28.

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  • trellheim
    replied
    If you know you're not going to get something that you need - most people will buy it.

    Barrack-room lawyers "I wasn't issued with it Sir" works only in some cases. Fine then get off the truck. I can't help you now, I couldn't help you 6 months ago because I don't have the kit in my pocket and don't control the stores. I'll sign paperwork and get you standing in front of a closed stores door as fast as you like. Yes folks we really do keep the kit because we like it in plastic pockets [ Damn I sound like a storesman now ] . I'm still on Smock #1 because I let recruits go past me in the kit line.


    How many times ? There is already a procedure for purchasing kit from the stores - go look up "on repayment"

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  • luchi
    replied
    Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
    eh...let you in on a little secret...I make a point of never firing blanks on tactics..I carry them but redistribute them...I learned my lesson many years ago.

    The rest is just pedantic..personnal comfort and well being as opposed to stuff that can't be done without....

    Get with the reality stakes.try it some time getting down a dirty and actually having what you need..you might even have fun.

    BTW the SIMFIRE.was the pyro for the AML 90.hasn't been used in years.
    Ok so I had a little rant. I know it is hard for some people to believe but I have actually done tactics and been out in the rain and got drty overnight in a hole. When I did my NCO course the Poncho was the std issue rain gear for the RDF. And yes I did have fun but that is not what this is about really is it?
    If you start by looking to buy rain gear etc you are going down a road that could lead to all sorts of crap.

    Originally posted by The Prisoner View Post
    The items I did not have on the course were a helmet and 58 pattern webbing. .............
    ..............
    I don't know any shops in my area that sell the above items. I would be surprised if it was common practice for FCA members to have access to the above items other than through PDF/RDF stores.
    At the RDFRA conference an attempt was made to get the NE to adopt a motion asking to permit RDF members to buy these from stores at cost.

    The motion was defeated by a resounding majority.

    I reckon there are two catagories of kit
    1 - Standard kit that you need to do the job effectively and thus should be issued
    2 - Things that you can do without but like to have. So go buy them yourself.

    I think it is obvious in which catagory many items lie.
    Last edited by luchi; 22 June 2007, 16:44.

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  • The Prisoner
    replied
    The items I did not have on the course were a helmet and 58 pattern webbing. I'm not talking about materials for lesson plans, etc and other little comforts.

    The reason was the PDF staff, on full wages and allownaces, did not/would not travel in a fully expensed service vehicle from the FCA location to the PDF barracks c.25 miles away to get the items from the stores.

    I don't know any shops in my area that sell the above items. I would be surprised if it was common practice for FCA members to have access to the above items other than through PDF/RDF stores.

    As it happens I did not piss the others off - in fact they got to do a lot of work without having to wear a helemt and webbing as we all had to be dressed the same.

    My point re: packing up and going home etc is that the powers that be would be delighted if the RDF was scrapped - full stop.

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