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  • support weapons & ORBATs

    Having heard a reference to the DFs lack of a 5.56mm section level lmg/lsw I thought I'd present the two most obvious and likely options for debate.

    The FN Minimi and the Steyr AUG heavy barrel/LSW.

    The comparative advantages of each are as follows:

    Minimi;
    1.Higher rate of fire (700-1000rpm)
    2.Higher magazine capacity (can also take m16 type mags)
    3. Battle proven

    Hbar;
    1.Superior accuracy
    2.less weight and bulk
    3.80% interchangeable with rifle, can use rifle magazines.
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  • #2
    superior accuracy = less ammo used = less ammo to carry in the first place!!
    You're even dumber than I tell people

    You might have been infected but you never were a bore

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    • #3
      It would have to be the H-Bar, think about it.

      Little or no training required for a conversion course; if the weapon ever breaks you can easily swap parts from the AUG to get the weapon up and running again; in a pinch swap magazines; ordering spare parts will be very easy when ordering styer parts just order a few extra.

      I would imagine that the fact we already have purchased the AUG we could get a discount on any purchases of the H-Bar. No matter what we think the Bean counters will go with the cheaper option, in this case the better one.

      Does anyone know if the H-Bar is being used by a countries armed forces, I would imagine the Ozzies are using it.

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      • #4
        The Aussies use the Minimi. The problem with the HBAR is the built-in stoppage - the magazine. As regards training, the Minimi is a lot like the MAG so the PDF should have no trouble with it.

        I'd go with the Minimi, for the PDF anyway. It would have to be modified to accept Steyr mags though. The HBAR, with 50-round drums or 45-round magazines, should be sufficient for the RDF.
        "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

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        • #5
          The Wingies have dropped the drum mag apparently, mind you they don't really need the Hbar anymore anyway.
          I'd have to go with FM on this, Minimi makes better sense for anyone with a chance of seeing action, the HBar will do for us though
          "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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          • #6
            Any idea why they dropped it?
            "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

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            • #7
              Maybe they just didn't need it, but drum magazines have always been associated with stopages; and fecky little tols to get them off .
              The other thing that springs to mind is that they usually employed it as a heavy rifle rather than LMG maybe the nature of the drums made it difficult to operate in this role
              "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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              • #8
                The arguments against the AUG-HBAR are similar to those against the British LSW, except the HBAR might actually work now and again.

                Bullpup rifles used in the LSW can also have problems with the shooting position, the bipod needs to be quite high to allow an upwards angle of fire.

                The Royal Marines and Para's have adopted the Minimi, and most units going abroad do their level best to get hold of more GPMG's.

                The Minimi is now almost the world standard LMG, everyone can't be wrong.
                .
                .
                .
                With 50,000 men getting killed a week, who's going to miss a pigeon?

                Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

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                • #9
                  The wing got the Minimi a while back.

                  I think the Falkland Island Defence Force uses the HBAR.

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                  • #10
                    I've never had issue with the drum magazine on the Minimi. 200 rounds is 15 seconds of raw firepower if you just hold the trigger down. Now that's plenty of suppression. A SAW gunner also carries some six spare drums on his vest, so there's plenty of ammo to waste.

                    Seems a decent enough weapon to me.

                    NTM
                    Driver, tracks, troops.... Drive and adjust!!

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                    • #11
                      It's the drum mag on the HBAR we're referring to.
                      "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

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                      • #12
                        The question is what is the mission of the weapon. The weapon would be used as part of the FSG -Fire Support Group. The idea is to win the firefight by suppressing the enemy to such an extent that he is unable to fire back accurately.

                        Minimi does it every time. (GPMG even better). The Hbar is probably a better weapon for accurate fire over a long distance possibly as a sniper support weapon. Personally in an attack, I would perfer the FSG just riddle the enemy line with rounds. My personal preference.

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                        • #13
                          Spraying that amount of ammo your talking about will require a truck to follow you into battle for re-supply. I appreciate you want to "win the firefight" so you can manoeuvre on the enemy’s position but wouldn't a few accurate rounds whizzing past their ears be more effective then blasting half the ammo reserves in the Curragh but not hitting anything?

                          Fewer rounds with more accuracy would be more effective in keeping the enemy’s heads down. God forbid we end up like the yanks in Vietnam when attacked by a sniper, we call in air support naval gunfire and arty, where's the sport in that? :D

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                          • #14
                            we recently got our hands on a drum mag for the M-4 and found the stoppages problem to be so acute that we got rid of the bunch.I have found the M-249/minimi to be a decent enough weapon but rather difficult and cumbersome to maneuver with.If I had a choice Id rather drag along a GPMG it weighs a fewe more pounds
                            (about 4) but nothing spells lovin like 7.62!

                            But back to the topic the minimi would be a betteer choice(imho) as you can sustain a higher rate of fire (without necessarily depleting the ammo reserve at the curragh!) which is what you need an automatic weapon to do.

                            well aimed fire will keep the enemy down, but you must choose your targets for your lmgs wisely as any autofire will alert the foe to the fact that they are facing at least a squad/section.if you can suppress with a few riflemen and perhaps the odd rifle grenade [ all you need to establish you have gained fire superiority is the absence of effective enemy fire].
                            When I breeze into that city, people gonna stoop and bow.
                            All them women gonna make me, teach 'em what they don't know how

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                            • #15
                              Just about everbody is using the Minimi, as stated earlier the Australian Army uses it alongside the Austeyr (replaced the M60) and I think the Kiwis do the same, even the French have adopted the para-stock version. As for inter-changeability (if such a word exists) remember the higher rate of fire often means parts get worn much quicker and means special heavy-duty parts (unsuitable for the rifle) are often required to keep it running.
                              And while I'm at it, is Ireland ever going to get left-handed and/or short barrel Steyrs?

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