Time to replace the Steyr or should we just shut up whinging?

[BANDIT]

The discussion regarding calibres etc has been going on for years and even if a new calibre is designed the debate will still continue.
Now whatever NCO said taht the Steyr was designed to wound should be.. Well this is not waht u want to teach recruits or others , the role of ....is to close with and kill the enemy.
The 7.62*51 was itself a political compromise as far as I know the original was something like a 270 Cal. The 5.56 has been found wanting in Iraq even in close contacts and has major short comings at longer ranges , this is why the US have I believe have armed a brigade with some form of a 270 cal. Yes U can carry more 5.56 but u also need more to put someone away. As regards the wet factor well with all the bells and whistles on the 5.56 rifles it probably counts out the weight saved by 5.56 ammo.
I have been around a number of major and partricipated in a few not so major conflicts.
Weapons our side FN Fals , some G3s and varients, and later M16 and varients other side everything from .45 tommy guns, ak,s SKS , ppsh etc.
Very few bells and whistles , now once u hit someone with a 7.62 by 51 he went down most times , 5.56 not half as many, Did not have time for checking point of impact etc.
I ahve also done a fair bit of hunting in Africa , For all my hunting I use a 375HH Magnum Buffalo to Impals , Pigs etc, Yes Its a bit big for a dik dik but its ready when I have a shot at a buff.I have shot Buff with a 3006 which I think is equiv to 7.62*69? but I prefer not to as the margin of error is very small. So morale of story is keep things simple and use enough gun( RR)

[Exo1]

I'd still much rather have the enemy out of the fight forever rather than giving him a chance to be treated and put back into the fight.

To be told you'll do more damage wounding an enemy than killing them is plain silly IMO.

In the case of Islamic Parimilitary Insurgents, its the only option.. they get dead real quick or you will... Good accurate weapon that fits the missino is what you need... if 5.56mm does it... fine.. if a larger calibre is needed.. then get one...

WW2 type tactics are being made redundant by this current phase of parimilitary warefare....

[Bailer]

All Valid points, But as a Defence Force, The Steyr is the Ideal Weapon, Sure the DF got a Cheapo Version (Kind of a Hybrid A1-A2). Not convertable to Suit Left hand firers, Not enough Special housing Groups. etc etc,

The problems the DF + Reserve Have with the Weapon is Clear.

* The Manual has been amended a number of times since its introduction in 1988. Most People are Using the original 1988 manual. The Ammendments are simply not communicated clearly enough. It still needs amendments to bring it in line with Modern MOI techniques and tools IMO.

* The Purpose of the Steyr Manual is to Train the Soldier to be an efficient Battle Shot. The Recruit and 2* Syllabi also reflect this. Unfortunately...

* No recruit will see a bayonet until they are a 2* IF someone decides to cover the Bayonet lessons. It Seems a Fear of Injury is the cause.. This is rediculous as SMT-1 has the bayonet as part of the Lesson.

* Most Rectuit camps I have been on have been solely aimed at getting them to pass TOETs and onto the range, Marksmanship, Aiming, and Firing are neglected in Favour of Mag filling and IA's. This means instructors and (Very few) Coaches must try and teach recruits how to fire ON the Firing point, Result = Scores in the 40's and low 50's in the Most Part.

* Time and time again I've seen weapons Dirty and Even fouled due to lack of Cleaning, or Poorly Cleaned, again this is either lack of knowledge or simply negligence by the Pte. and in some cases maybe even lack of experience by the NCO. To Clean the Steyr properly takes 10-15 Minutes. However People simlply don't learn it properly, Stripping Assembly and Cleaning is 3 45 minute Lessons, However it is usually thrown into 1 45 Min lesson, with the Concentration on Stripping and Assembly.

Lets Concentrate on the Weapon, Get General handling and Marksmanship to a High standard before we start making the Same mistakes with a whole new beast.

[ZULU]

Meet the SCAR - Defensetech.org

FNH USA has gotten the go-ahead to move into Operational Test and Evaluation of the SOCOM Combat Assault Rifle (Heavy) and (Light), as well as the Enhanced Grenade Launcher Module.


From FNH:

FN Herstal announced today through FNH USA that the Special Operations
Forces (SOF) Combat Assault Rifle (SCAR) and Enhanced Grenade Launcher Module (EGLM) program has received approval from the United States Government (USG) to enter into the Initial Operational Test & Evaluation (IOT&E) phase. Scheduled to commence in July and be complete by mid-December, the IOT&E will consist of select US Military operators testing the weapons in simulated “real-world” mission scenarios. Both quantitative and qualitative data will be collected, with the ultimate and desired outcome having the weapons being designated “Operationally Effective” and “Operationally Suitable” for fielding to US Forces.

This next step comes close on the heels of the SCAR and EGLM successfully passing their Low-Rate Initial Production (LRIP) acceptance testing conducted February through June of 2007. Going forward, as all timelines fall into place and the weapons test successfully, the SCAR and EGLM can be fielded, on a limited basis, to select US Military Forces by late fall of 2007. Plans to fully field the weapons are now developed and in place, with over $25M (procurement) budgeted in the FY2008 Presidential Budget and over $6M slated for FY2009.

From personal experience, I just gotta say these weapons rock. I fired the SCAR Heavy and Light at FNH’s range near Fredericksburg, Va., several months ago and fell particularly in love with the SCAR Heavy. The gas/piston system has a great “thunk-thunk” mechanical feel to it and the 7.62 caliber heavy packs a heck of a punch. The SCAR Light is easy to fire, very adjustable, and the barrels are easy to interchange - creating basically a whole new weapon for each variation.

Much to my chagrin, they wouldn’t let me test fire the EGLM (darn!).

With the new move to IOT&E, the SCAR earns a new designation: Mk-16 and Mk-17...

The SCAR system consists of two highly adaptable modular rifle platforms and a grenade launcher. Now US DoD type-designated as the MK 16 MOD 0 5.56mm Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle - Light (SCAR-L) and the MK 17 MOD 0 7.62mm Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle – Heavy (SCAR-H), both SCAR platforms are available with three different barrel lengths optimized for conducting operations in close-quarters combat, standard infantry and longer-range precision fire roles. All SCAR barrels can be easily interchanged by the operator in the field in just minutes to instantly meet the requirements of virtually any mission. The newly designated MK 13 MOD 0 40mm Enhanced Grenade Launcher Module (EGLM) quickly mounts to the underside of either SCAR platform, providing additional punch to the individual warfighter’s firepower and can be easily configured for use as a stand-alone weapon as well.

FNH says the Mk-16 and Mk-17 are the first assault rifles to be procured through a “full and open competition” since the M4/M16 carbines in the 1960s. Both FNH weapons are impressive and we’ll see how the operational tests and initial fielding go. I bet operators who get a chance to “test” them won’t want to give them up. I didn’t.

-- Christian

July 12, 2007 03:33 PM | Guns

both SCAR platforms are available with three different barrel lengths optimized for conducting operations in close-quarters combat, standard infantry and longer-range precision fire roles. All SCAR barrels can be easily interchanged by the operator in the field in just minutes to instantly meet the requirements of virtually any mission.

Sound familiar anyone?

[Goldie fish]

Nowt wrong with the folks from Herstal. Back in 86, the FNC was in there with a shout, until the price of the Steyr won them over. Consider also that the FN Mag has remained unmatched worldwide, in almost 50 years.

[thebig C]

Back-up....

[Kieran]

Back-up....

Very nice. Now lets see you try to pick it up.

[Goldie fish]

Am I the only one who thinks most of those accessories are unnecessary, and many make others redundant?
Or is that the point?

[mutter nutter]

Am I the only one who thinks most of those accessories are unnecessary, and many make others redundant?
Or is that the point?

It's a joke, a guy on an American forum put all he's gadgets onto his rifle and came up with this

[Barry]

The vast majority of the crap stuck onto that rifle are optical sights of some kind, with a laser, flashlight, vertical grip, bipod and feather (?!) added on for good measure. It's obviously a joke, and probably the result of someone saying "I wonder how much stuff I can fit onto the picatinny rails of my rifle"

[mutter nutter]

Not posted for any particular reson, just thought it looked nice

Thanks to APOD btw for the photo

[paul]

held that weapon,heavy bitch,it's almost twice as heavy as a normal steyr.

[mutter nutter]

held that weapon,heavy bitch,it's almost twice as heavy as a normal steyr.

Ah but you are a mear mortal...

[mutter nutter]

It does look like it would not be out of place in Aliens though

[trellheim]

ok that picture.

203 yes, torch yes, what's the gizmo on top that looks like an AUG's been humped by a P90