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Why have a DF at all??

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  • Why have a DF at all??

    I was reading through a couple of the threads were people were discussing
    What you carry into a SIA
    Serious training and fitness
    Replacement of weapons and weapons systems, vehicles etc
    Closing of various bks

    I got to thinking.
    The PDF have a role over-seas where they find themselves in all sorts of situations. At home the act as an armed security force. (please dont jump down on me for being simplistic).

    The RDF, well chances of going over seas is probably zero. Even if we did it has been stated it would be specialty roles such an tpt, medic and eng.
    If any forign power really wanted to take this island the just bomb Dublin, Cork, Limerick and the Currah and thus obliterate the majority of the Defence Forces. Certainly any air attack would be over before the anti aircraft weapond ever leave the gun park. What remains of the DF (including the RDF) would be so busy aiding the civil power picking up the bodies in the cities to resist any ground offencive.

    So whats the point of the air defence, artillary and cav. By time these units are mobilised the war is over.
    Infantry, transport and the medics would be mopping up the bodies not running through the woods in camo.

    Is it not time that the DF took a reality check. The only point of the integrated units is to train the troops so they can augment the PDF unit. At home this will never happen, well not in the running through the woods type role.

    Should someone not be looking at what we would be really useful for?
    Should the training program not be designed around that instead of tactical excercises that wil never be put in to use?

    I don't mean any disrespect to any one but I find some of the discussions are just a little far fetched in the face of what maybe the reality
    Without supplies no army is brave.

    —Frederick the Great,

    Instructions to his Generals, 1747

  • #2
    I think the sentiment expressed in Luchi's post is one of the most pertinent I've seen on this board. What is the purpose of the RDF?
    "Why, it appears that we appointed all of our worst generals to command the armies and we appointed all of our best generals to edit the newspapers. I mean, I found by reading a newspaper that these editor generals saw all of the defects plainly from the start but didn't tell me until it was too late. I'm willing to yield my place to these best generals and I'll do my best for the cause by editing a newspaper"
    Gen. Robert E. Lee

    Comment


    • #3
      The purpose of most army reserve's around the world today seems to be augmenting their regular counterparts on overseas service... TA, national Guard, Finns etc... That should be the RDF's role too.

      The vast majority of what the RDF have been doing for years is (mostly) basic training, turning over recruits. This must change to a more active role.

      A smaller organisation with manditory training requirements, fitness tests and all the rest is what's needed to get this. Before this can happen there needs to be legislative change... and most of all the will of the DF, DOD, minister and government.

      Comment


      • #4
        the main purpose of the defence forces is to defend the nation agains armed agression. the reserve as part of this would be tasked with this in times of emergency.

        the reserve is not currently in a position to do this and would need substantial training and equiping to do so. this is something that should be done if it is to be a credibale and effect force.

        i understand the sentiment of of this idea, i do not agree with it though.

        in effect, no disrespect, the regular army is doing what are effectively gendairme, police type task's. cash escorts and peace keeping and enforcement missions aren't exactly the same as the mission to close with and destroy the enemy.

        if you think along those lines, what is the point of having a defence forces at all.

        the point is that you need to prepare for war in times of peace, because no matter what, you should always be in a position to be able to defend yourself.

        the reserve does need to be improved to a great extent, but there is a need for it, i think.
        courage, endurance, mateship and sacrifice

        Comment


        • #5
          The only reason the Regs are doing those roles is because thankfully there are no "non gendairme" roles to fill. People have been killed on all the above mentioned tasks so they are by no means below the army. What the army trains for (dig ins etc.) and what it practices (ATCP) are 2 completely different things. I would have been more empathetic towards the statement had I not done integration and seen the standard / skills the regs are trained towards. They know alot more than how to do a bloody section in attack and where to stand in a cash escort.
          Last edited by Jimmy C; 3 August 2007, 11:37.
          "I have never accepted what many people have kindly said, namely that I inspired the Nation. It was the nation and the race dwelling around the globe that had the lion heart. I had the luck to be called upon to give the roar"
          - Sir Winston Churchill, Speech Nov. 1954.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by womble View Post
            the main purpose of the defence forces is to defend the nation agains armed agression. the reserve as part of this would be tasked with this in times of emergency.
            But what does that mean?

            What are "times of emergency"?

            Are we really learning anything that would be usefull?

            As I see it. If there was a serious agressor that decided to attack by land instead of just leveling the country with bombers there isn't a hope in hell that any of us would get near the bks in order to get a weapon.

            I see 2 prime sinario
            First sinario:
            After the cities are leveled we surrender. The Medics tend to the wounded, the engineers repair infastructure, the CIS restore communications and transport convey the dead bodies that all the other units are pulling from the ruins.
            Second sinario:
            We run and hide. Use all that cover and concealment stuff we learned. Then we scavenge for arms. Finally may an attempt to strike back but eventually get wiped out.

            In sinario 2 there is some use made of the tactical training but I believe sinario 1 is more likely.

            Is our purpose really just in our own minds. Optimistic hope that maybe we can make a difference?
            Or are we as the artilleryman says in war of the worlds "Bows and arrows against the lightening"?
            luchi
            Cut backs
            Last edited by luchi; 3 August 2007, 10:36.
            Without supplies no army is brave.

            —Frederick the Great,

            Instructions to his Generals, 1747

            Comment


            • #7
              This is an arguable point but here goes, if Ireland was to be subject to bombing / invasion (for example next week), it is likely that the DF would have at least a knowledge of the possibility - for example the Government would be having serious diplomatic problems with any Government. The DF would then intensify their training etc and possibly the RDF would be called up.

              Comment


              • #8
                So I will conceed that point.
                There we are all sitting in where ever. The air defence brings out all its guns. Is there enough to give protection to main cities. No! So Main cities are then leveled. War over. We are back to sinario 1

                Worse again lets say the agressor is the France, UK or US. An ICBM in Galway, Dublin and Cork will be enough to obliterate the whole country. RDF no longer exist. If anyone survives their only requirement other then survival will be medical.

                So tell me whats all the infantry and Cav training for?
                Without supplies no army is brave.

                —Frederick the Great,

                Instructions to his Generals, 1747

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by luchi View Post
                  But what does that mean?

                  What are "times of emergency"?

                  Are we really learning anything that would be usefull?

                  As I see it. If there was a serious agressor that decided to attack by land instead of just leveling the country with bombers there isn't a hope in hell that any of us would get near the bks in order to get a weapon.

                  I see 2 prime sinario
                  First sinario:
                  After the cities are leveled we surrender. The Medics tend to the wounded, the engineers repair infastructure, the CIS restore communications and transport convey the dead bodies that all the other units are pulling from the ruins.
                  Second sinario:
                  We run and hide. Use all that cover and concealment stuff we learned. Then we scavenge for arms. Finally may an attempt to strike back but eventually get wiped out.

                  In sinario 2 there is some use made of the tactical training but I believe sinario 1 is more likely.

                  Is our purpose really just in our own minds. Optimistic hope that maybe we can make a difference?
                  Or are we as the artilleryman says in war of the worlds "Bows and arrows against the lightening"?

                  My comment about times of emergency was made beacuse the reserve do not have the capability to perform their main task, the defend the nation against armed agression, currently to a required extent.
                  I said in times of emergency because i didnt want to sound alike a blow hard sounding off about the reserve being designed to defend the state against armed agression.
                  however i will now come out and say it.
                  the role of the reserve is to defend the state against armed agression. the reserve may not currently actively do that, but that is what it is there for.

                  it is not unreasonable to assume that the defence forces would have some notice if there was to be an invasion and training was stepped up and the reserve called out to help meet the threat, it has happened before, World War II and for the Troubles in the North.

                  Our purpose is to fight and die for our country when called upon. the same as any army. there has not been a major high intensitively conflict that has effected the western countries in the last 60 years yet they still maintain standing army's and reserve's.

                  leaving asside the fact that it needs alot of work be be able to do so currently, (work which i think should be done), the reserve is exactly that. a Reserve to be called up to aide the army
                  courage, endurance, mateship and sacrifice

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by womble View Post
                    it is not unreasonable to assume that the defence forces would have some notice if there was to be an invasion and training was stepped up and the reserve called out to help meet the threat, it has happened before, World War II and for the Troubles in the North.

                    Our purpose is to fight and die for our country when called upon. the same as any army. there has not been a major high intensitively conflict that has effected the western countries in the last 60 years yet they still maintain standing army's and reserve's.
                    All valid points.

                    But we are training for a WWII type war.

                    If we were attacked it would more likely to relieve us of some resource, that could be arrible land or some tobe discovered fuel. A war like that is not going to be fought like the ones in Iraq or Afganistan. I would be more on the lines of the Ethnic war of the former Yugoslavia or even like the Tutsi and Hutu slaughters.

                    Yes it is our duty to fight to the last but are we being prepared for that sort of fight?
                    Without supplies no army is brave.

                    —Frederick the Great,

                    Instructions to his Generals, 1747

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by luchi View Post
                      All valid points.

                      But we are training for a WWII type war.

                      If we were attacked it would more likely to relieve us of some resource, that could be arrible land or some tobe discovered fuel. A war like that is not going to be fought like the ones in Iraq or Afganistan. I would be more on the lines of the Ethnic war of the former Yugoslavia or even like the Tutsi and Hutu slaughters.

                      Yes it is our duty to fight to the last but are we being prepared for that sort of fight?
                      if we were attacked by a serious military force i unfortunately do not think that we would be able to defend ourselves properly, so there-fore your previous point that the DF could be used as a disaster reliefr force to some extent to use their specialised training is a good one. to be honest, the reserve would be a great pool of ready manpower handy to have around.
                      if the country was completely lamped out of it byu an agressive act, would the point be that it was a waste to have established a defence forces or was it a waste to not have trained and equipped them properly?

                      we aren't specially prepared to operate in a war like the one's in Iraq, etc or conflicts like Rawanda. But personally I don't think that any military force is properly trained for this, because they are not designed to do those sort of tasks.
                      a military force is designed to take and hold ground, close with and destroy the enemy, etc. these are just handy abilities to have in circumstances like Iraq etc where you soimetimes can get into an awfull fight.
                      courage, endurance, mateship and sacrifice

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Conventional warfare and Ireland dont mix.

                        Look at our terrain, look at our economy.

                        In the event of any type of invasion, conventional tactics go out the window.

                        Our only hope then is to look to our past.

                        And atleast we'll have a few thousand well trained potential resistance fighters from the pdf and atleast a few hundred decently trained from the rdf around the country


                        Oh also, by the way, we'll never get invaded unless we get infected by some sort of zombie plague that threatens the rest of the world or something stupid like that. The only thing of value Ireland has is a few deep ports and a strategic position beside Britain and being the closest european landmass to newfoundland in north america.

                        Almost forgot the new gas field discovered off Sligo, Its worth about 3 billion over 15 years, not worth invading for, but its a better reason than peat.


                        Remember what Hitler called Ireland in the second world war when asked to consider Ireland for a possible stepping stone onto Britain. "Not that cabbage patch"


                        Not that cabbage patch indeed.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Komsomol View Post
                          Not that cabbage patch indeed.
                          Ah Hitler may have been right. Arrible land is becomming more and more presious with the growth in global population. And some scientists claim the that as the climate warms places like Ireland will become the bread basket of the world.

                          Although each of you (komsomol and womble) have valid points its hard to see the bases for the RDFs existance beyond giving people an interest. From both of yor posts I take that basic infantry training may be of use in a brave new world to resistance fighters.
                          Certainly training such as artillery, cav and air defence seems totally pointless. Since so many people learn to drive anyway tpt training is also a "nice to have". Naval service is also questionable.
                          luchi
                          Cut backs
                          Last edited by luchi; 3 August 2007, 17:21.
                          Without supplies no army is brave.

                          —Frederick the Great,

                          Instructions to his Generals, 1747

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            A defence force is an expression of sovereignty of that state. As with every other country, the army / navy / air corp is there as a tool of the state as well as an expression of its independance. The reserve is a contingency plan that all military forces prepare for. Look at the times it was called upon because of such contingencies. WW2, 1969 NI.

                            Also in the remotest possibility of a global conflict, the reserve acts as a immediate backup to the front line forces and buffers the lag time in changing a drafted civy into a soldier
                            "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              seems to me lads that the only reason for a standing army in western european countries these days is to provide troops for future UN and NATO ops and for responding to terrorist attacks.

                              eastern european countries still need them in case they go tits up and end up like bosnia.

                              then u have the BA, US and foreign legion that provide the backbone and muscle to keep osama and his mates on the run.

                              the US forces are currently the worlds police weather we like it or not and i for one am glad to be on their side.

                              other then that chaps what other reasons are their????

                              apart of course from cheap labour when the bin men, firemen, and buses go on strike which is the only kind of strike Ireland should be worried about cause after all havent u got the fantastic RAF looking after your airspace??????
                              Irishman serving in Her Majesty's Splendid Armed Forces, seeking fame and fortune and bringing light to the dark places of the World.

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