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  • #91
    Again, I'll repeat. To be recognised as a sovereign state, you must have the means of exercising your claims to territory
    I'd love to know where this rumour comes from? It helps, certainly, but not every state has that. Even if it were a 'binding' international law, how would it be enforced? "Go on, recruit an army, or I'll ... I'll ... I'll invade! Yeah, that'll teach you!"

    As for the general question, I think it might be an idea to recognise that there are two separate questions here;

    (a) What good is the RDF now?
    (b)What should the RDF be able to do?

    (a) I'm not in a position to answer, nor should anyone take a detailed stab at for a variety of legal reasons.

    (b) is pretty obvious also; everything the PDF can do.

    As to why does the DF exist at all, well, loads of people have answered that, (Carrington's being an interesting answer) - in reality, there are several reasons. Here are a few.

    (1) Internal Security. The DF are the ultimate arbitors of law and order and the power of the state.
    (2) Defending the state against external agression. Ok, so the current DF couldn't 'take' the US Armed forces, big whoop, who could. They do act as a deterrent to lesser forces however, and least give the state a right of reply.
    (3) They would form the basis of a much larger 'wartime' force - were such an extreme situation come to pass. Ok, unlikely that the state could get arms and equipment in a timely fashion - O'Halpin's "Defending Ireland" agrees with Expat01 on this.
    (4) They provide forces for the state to deploy abroad in a variety of regional security roles, be they peacekeeping in Liberia, or stablising regions on the fringes of the EU. KFOR being an obvious and topical example of where the DF are currently working to defend the state. How? Regional security is a communal business, we have to pull our weight, meaningless scaremongering about a 'European SuperArmy' aside.

    Comment


    • #92
      [QUOTE]sov·er·eign·ty (svr-n-t, svrn-)
      n. pl. sov·er·eign·ties
      1. Supremacy of authority or rule as exercised by a sovereign or sovereign state.
      2. Royal rank, authority, or power.
      3. Complete independence and self-government.
      4. A territory existing as an independent state.[/QUOTE]


      In international law, sovereignty is the legitimate exercise of power by a state.

      De jure sovereignty is the legal right to do so

      De facto sovereignty is the ability in fact to do so

      The Defence forces are the tool of the government, which are elected by the people. The government, people and courts make changes to law and the constituion that governs the countries citizens. To enact, enforce and serve these laws and constitutional notions the government has a range of tools to do so, by force (DF) if neccassary. Any other outside power, country, that tries to enact changes to these particulars will be resisted by the nations excercise of its soveregenty, i.e, call on its Defence Forces to repel the influences.

      Not quite a rumour.

      Any of the countries, states, principalities in the world that do not have an army per say to act out its sovereignty, have a military defense agreement in some form or another with another country to defend its soveregin particulars
      "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

      Comment


      • #93
        Expat01. My logic? I am constantly saying. We live in a modern world. That was recognised in the PDF and they done something about it..
        If we are going to have a meaningful RDF
        (A) It needs to be better trained
        (B) it needs to be better eqipped
        (C) It needs to be realistically organised.
        (D) The PDF need to accept it
        (E) It needs to be utillised so that it gets the experience it needs to function.

        This is my logic and not as peoiple conviently claim my logic to be "its broke fcuk it out!!!"

        Originally posted by ZULU View Post
        In international law, sovereignty is the legitimate exercise of power by a state.
        Oh come on the Government and ergo the state does that every day. They use a thing called diplomacy.

        Any of the countries, states, principalities in the world that do not have an army per say to act out its sovereignty, have a military defense agreement in some form or another with another country to defend its soveregin particulars
        So then there are countries, sovern states with no army.

        But you said that We MUST have an army???

        Originally posted by Aidan
        (b)What should the RDF be able to do?

        .................................................

        (b) is pretty obvious also; everything the PDF can do.
        Should...yes maybe it should but the fact is it can not!!!!
        Surley given the current strength it should structured to do what it can do and leave aside what it cannot.

        A couple of years ago one of the papers ran an article saying that the DF had such limited amo reserves for certain weps that they would be expended before reserves could be mobilised. (I ame carefully para phrasing but I am sure some of you remember this article) However the reserve still trains to operate these weapons. Why?
        Last edited by luchi; 14 August 2007, 22:18.
        Without supplies no army is brave.

        —Frederick the Great,

        Instructions to his Generals, 1747

        Comment


        • #94
          Zulu, Goldie is a Civil Servant, by your definition, he can 'exercise sovereignty', as he is a tool of the state, as could a Garda, a park ranger, or a street sweeper.* The key issue is by your definition is 'means'. The means to exercise or 'defend' against what, the Soviet Grand fleet, or an infestation of mildly annoying pensioners?

          You said "To be recognised as a sovereign state, you must have the means of exercising your claims to territory" The other question is, recognised by who? The UN?

          Its also worth pointing out that you said that the PDF was also "a demonstration and prerequisite symbol of the nation’s independence" which is entirely true and accurate. I assume you would have quoted the relevant piece of enforceable international legislation had you had it, instead of calling the PDF a 'prerequisite symbol' rather than a legal obligation.

          In practical terms Luchi, states may chose to have military means to exercise their sovereignty, but they don't 'have' to. Similarly, there is no international law that states the minimum amount of force that a state must be able to bring to bear on an agressor. Hence the DF here have the means that are granted them by the democratically elected government of the state. I'm sure we all have an opinion as to the correctness of that level, but thats a separate story.



          *Note, I did not call him a tool!

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Aidan View Post
            As to why does the DF exist at all, well, loads of people have answered that, (Carrington's being an interesting answer) - in reality, there are several reasons. Here are a few.

            (1) Internal Security. The DF are the ultimate arbitors of law and order and the power of the state.
            (2) Defending the state against external agression.

            Like you said, the DF are the "Ultimate" arbitors of law and order and power of the state. If the government are mandated by the people to excercise the constitution and laws of the land, and a certain group, are not particularly keen on abiding, then they excercise their independance and soveregnty by using the DF forceably against them if neccassary.

            IRA V DF anyone?

            Navy, custums, garda V Drug Importers?

            Yes civil servants and streetsweepers for the local council are all tools of the elected government, but are they going to forceably disarm an illegal armed body? No - Thats what the army is for.


            Originally Posted by ZULU
            In international law, sovereignty is the legitimate exercise of power by a state.
            Originally Posted by Luchi
            Oh come on the Government and ergo the state does that every day. They use a thing called diplomacy.
            Diplomacy is not a soveregn excercise per say. You can have a dictatorship that excercises de facto soveregnty as well.

            Any of the countries, states, principalities in the world that do not have an army per say to act out its sovereignty, have a military defense agreement in some form or another with another country to defend its soveregin particulars
            So then there are countries, sovern states with no army.

            But you said that We MUST have an army???
            No -one said that we "MUST" have an army, but the last time we had some one else's army looking over us, we didn't exactly have much in the way of self determination either

            British Crown forces ?
            Last edited by ZULU; 14 August 2007, 23:51.
            "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

            Comment


            • #96
              Relax lads, in 20 or 30 years time, those of you who are still around will be part of one of the biggest armies in the world: the EUA (AEU? EUDF? EDF?......)

              Ireland's sovereignty is already pooled with those of the other EU countries, in many areas. Assuming the process continues, the logical outcome is a European Army (and a European Navy and European Air Force of course).

              Comment


              • #97
                This could go on for ever.

                Time to move on or back as the case may be

                Originally posted by luchi
                Restructure
                - make the Coy tpt RLSB into the tptcoy of one of the inf batallions. Then, as per syllibus, actually teach the drivers tactical driving instead of "how to make your bed in the cab"
                - Cav can be redeployed to train as a mechanised inf.
                - Artillery and AD not sure but maybe convert to sp weps sections in the inf.
                Originally posted by luchi View Post
                Expat01. My logic? I am constantly saying. We live in a modern world. That was recognised in the PDF and they done something about it..
                If we are going to have a meaningful RDF
                (A) It needs to be better trained
                (B) it needs to be better eqipped
                (C) It needs to be realistically organised.
                (D) The PDF need to accept it
                (E) It needs to be utillised so that it gets the experience it needs to function.
                So this is in general. Agree or disagree?
                How should we move forward?
                Or are you all happy that the Int is the answer to all concerns?
                Or come to think of it are you happy that the int is all the change that will happen for the for seeable future?
                Without supplies no army is brave.

                —Frederick the Great,

                Instructions to his Generals, 1747

                Comment


                • #98
                  Armies and sovereignty. It was essential for Ireland to regain the Treaty Ports before WW2 to permit us to be non-combatant (I refuse to use the term "neutral" to describe our position then or since) because the Treaty left Britain responsible for our coastal defence. Like I said, we just about got away with it in WW2. On 9/11, we apparently requested the RAF to patrol our airspace because we could not. I'm sure the government is correct and a that request was made. I'm not 100% sure that the request was made before London informed Dublin that the request better be forthcoming. I'm very sure that those planes would have been in our skies no matter what we did because Britains security could not be held hostage to Ireland's inability to send up a single CAP. Do you imagine that those RAF interceptors were taking orders from Dublin, or the Irish government would (or could) have been consulted before they took action? There is a concrete example of how our sovereignty was compromised by our lack of even a token military capability, we don't need to talk about the newly powerful Russia or a future Chinese threat at all. Here in Africa, the big probelm the AU faces in securing credibility on the continent is the inability of African nations to provide credible military forces for peacekeeping on their own continent. Africa relies on forces from outside - generally India and Pakistan, though the Europeans make the headlines. Perhaps -and this might be a real mind-bender - Ireland should consider its responsibility to others. You know. Like Europe. That thing we're part of which used to provide lots of cash before we got rich.

                  Anyway.

                  Originally posted by luchi View Post
                  Expat01. My logic? I am constantly saying. We live in a modern world. That was recognised in the PDF and they done something about it..
                  If we are going to have a meaningful RDF
                  (A) It needs to be better trained
                  (B) it needs to be better eqipped
                  (C) It needs to be realistically organised.
                  (D) The PDF need to accept it
                  (E) It needs to be utillised so that it gets the experience it needs to function.
                  Absolutely. My notes would be:
                  (A) Yes, but that's neither so hard nor expensive as people seem to think. Surely four or six weeks basic would not be utterly impossible, followed be two week-camps thereafter or four for courses? Legislation, yes - but less than is required for sending them overseas. Even without that a lot can be done, because a lot has been done in some units. There are RDF units that could put up a fight without disgracing themselves, you know.
                  (B) That's less of a problem than it was, and becoming smaller every year.
                  (C) It needs to be seen as realistic. Use them like a military force, they'll be one, finish and klaar.
                  (D) The PDF serve beside whoever they're told to, the government needs to accept the RDF.
                  (E) See (C).

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Luchi, you're making complete sense. There are only three things standing in your way.

                    (1) The current allocation of funding
                    (2) The opinion and attitude of the PDF towards the RDF, because they see it as a joke.
                    (3) The behaviour and attitude of those in the RDF who treat it as a joke.

                    All three would have to be changed to make the RDF a deployable force. It can be done though.

                    Zulu, nice reversal!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by expat01 View Post

                      (D) The PDF serve beside whoever they're told to, the government needs to accept the RDF.
                      As the old saying goes "I know that, you know that, now try and tell them that."

                      That may be true when talking about overseas working with other forces but there is a large element of the PDF that see the RDF as a joke.They are the professionals and we are just playing soldiers. I am sure everyone in Dublin could cite examples of how they have experienced this attitude. for some reasons it is less prevelent in the rural units.
                      Expat01 if you believe any different all I can say is thats your opinion. How many years were you in the reserves here? How long ago?
                      Last edited by luchi; 15 August 2007, 10:56.
                      Without supplies no army is brave.

                      —Frederick the Great,

                      Instructions to his Generals, 1747

                      Comment


                      • I disagree. During the summer i was privelaged to work alongside the PDF during our corps concentration, and i found, with no exception that if the RDF people showed their ability to do the job, they were accepted by the PDF as just another one of the team. The greater interaction between RDF and PDF, the better impression the PDF get of the RDF.

                        Perhaps the Dublin units don't have the same interaction?


                        Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                        Comment


                        • we had the RDF lads in last year

                          and without exception we were impressed witheveryone of them

                          the NCO's and Officers started out a bit rusty

                          but we were all impressed by their eagerness to learn and not one of them had a problem

                          with being shown the right way to do things (or rather the Armyway)

                          the privates were equal to our own.

                          We need a lot more mixing of the Units-

                          we need to see them more

                          we especially need to see more of the females (aka sacrifical lambs)
                          Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                          Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                          The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                          The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                          The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                          Are full of passionate intensity.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
                            Perhaps the Dublin units don't have the same interaction?
                            Probably true.

                            Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
                            we had the RDF lads in last year

                            and without exception we were impressed witheveryone of them

                            the NCO's and Officers started out a bit rusty

                            but we were all impressed by their eagerness to learn and not one of them had a problem
                            I have experieced the "I am a soldier, you're just dressing up" attitude in CBB. I wont go into details but involved a BTC cadre sgt of all people. So I think some have a bee in their bonnet. Some years ago they were the majority. Now thankfully they are the vocal minority.

                            with being shown the right way to do things (or rather the Armyway)

                            the privates were equal to our own.

                            We need a lot more mixing of the Units-

                            we need to see them more

                            we especially need to see more of the females (aka sacrifical lambs)
                            God I should have known were this comment would end up. Go wash your mouth out!!
                            Without supplies no army is brave.

                            —Frederick the Great,

                            Instructions to his Generals, 1747

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by luchi View Post
                              Probably true.



                              I have experieced the "I am a soldier, you're just dressing up" attitude in CBB. I wont go into details but involved a BTC cadre sgt of all people. So I think some have a bee in their bonnet. Some years ago they were the majority. Now thankfully they are the vocal minority.



                              God I should have known were this comment would end up. Go wash your mouth out!![/
                              Man

                              you want to be part of the green machine

                              thats what we do

                              talk about women and sprts
                              Last edited by ZULU; 15 August 2007, 12:10.
                              Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                              Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                              The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                              The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                              The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                              Are full of passionate intensity.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
                                Man

                                you want to be part of the green machine

                                thats what we do

                                talk about women and sprts
                                Ah sure I know that. The scary part is that the women seem to do the same!!

                                but back to the discussion.

                                What do you think of concentrating the reserve effort and training or diversify further, as was suggested with an air reserve?
                                Without supplies no army is brave.

                                —Frederick the Great,

                                Instructions to his Generals, 1747

                                Comment

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