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  • #46
    One remaining...there were others.
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
      2 Cav were the only unit that wore it.
      No they weren't.
      sigpic
      Say NO to violence against Women

      Originally posted by hedgehog
      My favourite moment was when the
      Originally posted by hedgehog
      red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

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      • #48
        I was actually pondering this whole RDF v PDF thing the other night,

        As a supporter of the RDF, I actually felt a bit guilty for the actions of a PDF Private

        I was thinking- how has it come this far- why would a private who in all reality is probably

        an ex FCA or RDF lad act like that,

        then I re read the post

        Actual conversation/event
        RDF Sgt "How's it going. Are you the OS, we have 7 vehicles to fill."
        PDF Pte "Yeah well the OS left the keys with me and he's not here.
        RDF Sgt "Right do you know when he'll be back?"
        PDF Pte "No, I'm not his f-ing keeper"
        RDF Sgt "Any chance you can give us the keys and 441?
        PDF Pte "F**k off I don't give the keys to you lot"

        RDF Sgt pissed off by this last comment puicks up phone and dials own CO, who just happens to be PDF mans CO.

        RDF Sgt "Sir there is no one here to fill us, Pte X is here but says he won't"
        Hands phone to Pte X " your CO wants to talk to you"

        I know exactly why-

        that sgt was a worthless piece of dog dung not fit to wear the 3 stripes-

        To a civil question, a private answered

        No, I'm not his f-ing keeper"
        the RDF Sgt, if he was worthy of the rank should have stood him to attention and asked the question not as a truck driver, not as a mate, not even as a bloke form the reserve

        but as a ****nig Sgt.

        this class asct of an NCO who has the same title as me then says

        Any chance you can give us the keys and 441?
        Any Chance- any chance- none whatso ever- the private just told you to fukc off and now

        you are timidly asking him

        ANY CHANCE
        and then he told you

        PDF Pte "F**k off I don't give the keys to you lot"
        No where in the tale do you mention where the Private was locked up- or even charged

        what does this leader of men do

        He rings the fukcing Officer.

        the problem is as I see it, that waste of 3 stripes wants to play at driving cars

        and be called Sgt without displaying any of the moral courage of actually enforcing his

        rank and enforcing discpline.

        He has let himslef down and whilst that is bad enough

        he has also let my rank down- a rank I fought hard to get and a rank I fight hard to

        be proffessional in.

        that sgt, and all other sgts like him whether they be pdf, rdf or what ever

        should forget about drawing fuel

        and go to the BQ stores and draw a big

        set of bright and shiny dangly bollixes
        Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
        Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
        The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
        The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
        The best lack all conviction, while the worst
        Are full of passionate intensity.

        Comment


        • #49
          the RDF Sgt, if he was worthy of the rank should have stood him to attention and asked the question not as a truck driver, not as a mate, not even as a bloke form the reserve
          would only have served to inflame the incident even further and would have proabaly haven't gotten everybody elses back up and drawn a total blank.

          Walking away took a lot of morale courage knowing that he was being ridiculed and that it could even go further..he took the appropriate stpes and reported it the privates superiors.

          Whilst I don't condone the incident I mysel even as three striper would never go head to head publicy with any one either below or equal to my rank..only undermines your own credibility. To emgage in a slanging match or attempt to discipline this soldier would have benn a pointless exercise and and further loss of control of the situation could have impacted badly on the relationship between the units.

          I believe the sergeant made a good call and removed himself from the scenario and brought it to the attention of a higher authourity.

          Its quite acceptable for me to bottle the people under my commnad but I'm dammned if I'm doing some one elses jobIts was a bit extreme going to an officer ..would have been better if it had been dealt with with either the Guard Commander or the OS without having to get officers involved.

          Its one thing using your rank with your own people where your rank is sacrosanct but when dealing with issues generated by some one outside their unit its better for the NCOs of that unit to be provided with relavent information and let them deal with 'in house'
          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

          Comment


          • #50
            NO
            The problem is people have this attitude of a modular army

            he is not in my unit therefore he is not under my remit

            or he is not from my barracks

            It is the one Defence Forces, I have pulled Airmen and Sailors (dont go there)

            and pulled RDF people for indiscpline

            it is the Job of EVERY NCO to enforce discpline

            I personally think and I am doing the job a long time now

            that that RDF guy was deficent in his duty in not correcting the problem there and then.

            the Private is our responsibility, not just his own units.
            Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
            Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
            The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
            The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
            The best lack all conviction, while the worst
            Are full of passionate intensity.

            Comment


            • #51
              You guys are both right but in fairness HH, the Pte idn't going to stand to attention to anyone who he has no respect for.
              The NCO should have just walked i there in the first place and told said Pte I want the keys! Which says to Pte X this guy is a REAL NCO with balls, I better do as he says! If he then can't issue the keys without asking the OS then so be it, but Pte X's attitude is going to be a lot different to that NCO.
              WARNING: Consumption of alcohol may lead you to believe that ex-lovers are really dying for you to ring them at 4am!!

              Comment


              • #52
                It is the one Defence Forces, I have pulled Airmen and Sailors (dont go there)

                and pulled RDF people for indiscpline

                it is the Job of EVERY NCO to enforce discpline
                yes agreed totally but there are situations where dealing with situations by having a third part such as an NCO who is more familiar with the individual involved..the NCO in charge of the section has a right to know where his men have crossed the line and there maybe other issues at stake and informing the third party i would say repect for this rank in advising him he has a problem in his unit.His descision on the subject maybe key to case building in regard to other such instances.

                Would you prefer if one of your kid was bollocked by a narky neighbour and was not disciplined or would you prefer to have the neighbour call around and let you decide on the punishment.

                I would have far more respect for the NCO who might have let fly and thne come back ann informed me or had a pproached me without confonting the otehr guy and asked me to sort it and let me deside on a further course of action while taking the time to thank the mentioned NCO for taking the time off to keep me informed.

                If the incident had been dealt with on the spot and as happened reffered to the NCO nine times out of ten the private will now comply knowing that the RDF sergeant was unwilling to confront the situation and get into a mire of military law and merely aquired the help of some one who could solve the issue without the RDF NCO having to deal with this guy sumarily.

                I still think it was a reasonable call andleft the PDF man under no illusions that he may have got away with trying to make a wanker of a RDF sergeant.

                Until the PDF and RDF learn to work together in stamping out this type of incident....respect is a long way off.

                I can see where HH is coming from and that the RDF man should have been more curtious but this was not even going to solve the problem as the PDF private was actuall obeying SOPs albeit with his own touch. the RDf SGt was already agrieved at this and would possibly lost sight of the issue by bollocking the private and in the heat of the moment the actual issue of the keys would have become secondary.

                engage brain before using mouth.

                The NCO should have just walked i there in the first place and told said Pte I want the keys! Which says to Pte X this guy is a REAL NCO with balls
                far too cofrontational and only gives over to ill feeling in the future and can lead to some embarrasment all round.
                Last edited by hptmurphy; 5 October 2007, 11:56.
                Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                Comment


                • #53
                  While the "softly softly" approach suggested by Murf is usually the best way to get things done with the PDF, when a Pte thinks that he can tell a NCO (PDF or RDF) to "F**k off I don't give the keys to you lot" then said Pte should be getting his heels together and learning that talking to a NCO like that is a good way to end up having a one sided conversation with the CO (complete with escorts). It's completely unacceptable, and as Hedgehog said, shows a distinct lack of moral courage.

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                  • #54
                    Well, I have to say I agree with you all in different ways.

                    If said sgt "got tough" where would it have got him?
                    Maybe next time the pte would say to himself "this is a sgt I will treat him so" or maybe not. He may even enforce the SOP and the whole bks would have to wait for the OS to fill.

                    In the incident as it happens the RDF Sgt just followed the chain of command. The next available senior person available that night, other than the missing OS, just happened to be the CO. If it was during the day I am sure there would have been many other solutions.

                    There has been an incident were an RDF Sgt (now CQ) did exactly that. (Stood Pte to attention etc). When the duty NCO came in, also a Sgt, the RDF Sgt was basically told he had no business standing any PDF man to attention. So what do you do?

                    Its ok for HH to talk about not having the balls to use the rank as he has the PDF status that gives extra weight to his balls. There are, as I have said else where, certain intergrated ptes that are saying "you can't tell us what to do because we're not under your command". Problem is know one knows if they are correct so rather than rock the boat you try work around it.
                    Without supplies no army is brave.

                    —Frederick the Great,

                    Instructions to his Generals, 1747

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      My reading of the situation is that Pte X needs to be disciplined. There's absolutely nothing stopping the RDF Sgt from writing up a charge sheet and forwarding it to the unit involved. He's going to have to face up to discouragement from his PDF Cadre and CO who don't want to bother with such problems but that's life. Another problem of course is the OS. Is he allowed hand over the keys according to his orders? For certain the RDF Sgt (or anybody else for that matter) had no business demanding the keys. Referring the matter to his CO was a good idea in order to get the cars filled. The issue needs to be followed up with disciplinary action for the insubordination which will in turn ensure that filling of cars by RDF personel is dealt with properly in future.
                      Last edited by Groundhog; 5 October 2007, 11:28.
                      sigpic
                      Say NO to violence against Women

                      Originally posted by hedgehog
                      My favourite moment was when the
                      Originally posted by hedgehog
                      red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Hi all
                        I once had an Officer, from another Air Corps sub-unit, snap his fingers at me and demand that his aircraft be refuelled. I lost the plot and told him where to stick his fingers, using Willie O'Dea style language, about how I wasn't fom his unit and he could go and effing find his own lazy wankers to refuel his effing aircraft,etc,etc....When he reacted in much the same fashion, I challenged him to go before his CO, who was sitting in his office nearby, with me and repeat our "chat". Meanwhile, my colleagues, who had beeen tending the King Air with me, took the opportunity to vanish.The Officer and I went, both fuming, to the Boss's office and we individually explained our case. As I was waiting outside, I cooled down and realised what I'd done and began to really sweat.I had my turn before the Boss and told my side of the story. The Boss got the Officer to apologise for snapping his fingers and I apologised to him for my TD-style language.The Officer was then dismissed and I then got a polite but pointed bollicking from the Boss.Much chastened, I left as quickly and as quietly as I could.Naturally, as soon as I got outside, I found out that the whole camp knew about it, courtesy of the ever-efficient Don grapevine.I got the slagging of a lifetime but never, ever got bothered again when about my business on the King Air....
                        regards
                        GttC

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                        • #57
                          While the "softly softly" approach suggested by Murf is usually the best way to get things done with the PDF, when a Pte thinks that he can tell a NCO (PDF or RDF) to "F**k off I don't give the keys to you lot" then said Pte should be getting his heels together and learning that talking to a NCO like that is a good way to end up having a one sided conversation with the CO (complete with escorts). It's completely unacceptable, and as Hedgehog said, shows a distinct lack of moral courage
                          This is from a person who has dealt with far more disciplinary issues in the work place and having to deal with unions etc is obliged to work.....It may not be applicable in a miliatry situation..or may cause rebuke from fellow NCOs...but this is how I operate.

                          Its nothing to do with moral courage...its how people within civvy life are trained how to deal with situations without having to introduce confrontation.

                          Repect and rank and all that is fine in certain situations but has very little place when it come s around to getting on with it and getting the job done..and avoiding open and hostile confrontation.

                          In all the time I have served I have once lost the plot in public while dealing with an equivalent rank...it ended up in the proscribed military fashion....felt like a ****ing school boy in front of a headmaster..never again...delegate upwards...I'll manage at my own level with people who are willing to co operate..those who fail to comply can be dealt with by others whose remit it is to sort these things...I won't be loosing sleep.
                          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                          • #58
                            Correct me if I'm wrong says he, putting his hand out, but it was always my understanding that in general an RDF person has no authority over a PDF person, unless it was a specific duty or detail eg guard commander.

                            In this case I would be of the opinion that the RDF person had no direct authority over the PDF person. But that does not excuse bad manners.

                            I agree that ringing the PDF CO was the nuclear option but ha what the f***. I just love when actions have consequences.
                            I'm not a number, I'm a free man.
                            Who is number 1?

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by The Prisoner View Post
                              Correct me if I'm wrong says he, putting his hand out, but it was always my understanding that in general an RDF person has no authority over a PDF person, unless it was a specific duty or detail eg guard commander.

                              In this case I would be of the opinion that the RDF person had no direct authority over the PDF person. But that does not excuse bad manners.
                              The PDF Pte was not under the command of the Sgt, so the Sgt could not say "you go clean out the toilets", but that does not mean that the Pte has the right to tell the Sgt to **** off, or that the Sgt cannot give the Pte a bollocking for failing to respect rank (though a lot of NCOs won't do that, as Hedgehog said)

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Barry View Post
                                The PDF Pte was not under the command of the Sgt, so the Sgt could not say "you go clean out the toilets", but that does not mean that the Pte has the right to tell the Sgt to **** off, or that the Sgt cannot give the Pte a bollocking for failing to respect rank (though a lot of NCOs won't do that, as Hedgehog said)
                                Yes they won't but is it because
                                1. They don't have the balls (as HH also said) to hold rank?
                                2. PDf personnel pay lip service to RDF rank because at the end of the day "we are the professionals and we stick to gether" so rant all you like it will get you no where?
                                3. RDF pers feel that they will not get the backing from the PDF?
                                4. RDF have always been told that they have no authority over PDF unless the said PDF per is placed directly under their control?


                                I know times have changed but I am sure those of you that did the Sp Olympics can remember some of the US and THEM crap that went on. That was a diffeerent situation and accross the ranks I know but it all comes fron the same attitude. Just different means of expression!!
                                Without supplies no army is brave.

                                —Frederick the Great,

                                Instructions to his Generals, 1747

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