Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Individual attitudes in the DF

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
    BANDIT
    Banned User

  • BANDIT
    replied
    Regardless of the minute legalities of the case the PDF guy was out of line in telling anyone including the RDF NCO to F Off. He should have been charged by his own NCOs.. conduct preduj... to Etc.
    He could on the other hand have used his head told him he cannot give him the keys and that was it. I am sure the particular individual was either a complete red arse or one of those guys who are always angling for a cushy number.. a waster..
    As regards Officers clicking the fingers I have come across similar in the past.. ust ignore the pricks and get your own back: once as a guard commander I had a young officer who tried it on, nearly demented by ensuring that our mobile patrols called him up , I reported everything , smallese noise etc ,on time etc , kept him awake and on his toes all night. BOS knew what was going on but let it go..

    Leave a comment:

  • trellheim
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher

  • trellheim
    replied
    Exactly the point GH. That addenda to A19 was put in just for Cadre. IMHO.

    Leave a comment:

  • Groundhog
    Chief of the Diet Tribe

  • Groundhog
    replied
    Originally posted by The Prisoner View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong says he, putting his hand out, but it was always my understanding that in general an RDF person has no authority over a PDF person, unless it was a specific duty or detail eg guard commander.

    In this case I would be of the opinion that the RDF person had no direct authority over the PDF person. But that does not excuse bad manners.
    Originally posted by trellheim View Post
    A19 says you RDF may not command PDF unless specifically placed under their command. Correct.
    You can charge him though for other things. quite happily.
    Irrelevant. I have no direct command over a Private in 4th Bn for instance but he is still required to obey my orders and respect my rank.

    Leave a comment:


  • hedgehog
    replied
    Originally posted by trellheim View Post
    A19 says you RDF may not command PDF unless specifically placed under their command. Correct.
    You can charge him though for other things. quite happily.
    Post that bit will you be Trellheim

    thanks

    Leave a comment:

  • trellheim
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher

  • trellheim
    replied
    A19 says you RDF may not command PDF unless specifically placed under their command. Correct.
    You can charge him though for other things. quite happily.

    Leave a comment:

  • luchi
    Cut backs

  • luchi
    replied
    Originally posted by Barry View Post
    The PDF Pte was not under the command of the Sgt, so the Sgt could not say "you go clean out the toilets", but that does not mean that the Pte has the right to tell the Sgt to **** off, or that the Sgt cannot give the Pte a bollocking for failing to respect rank (though a lot of NCOs won't do that, as Hedgehog said)
    Yes they won't but is it because
    1. They don't have the balls (as HH also said) to hold rank?
    2. PDf personnel pay lip service to RDF rank because at the end of the day "we are the professionals and we stick to gether" so rant all you like it will get you no where?
    3. RDF pers feel that they will not get the backing from the PDF?
    4. RDF have always been told that they have no authority over PDF unless the said PDF per is placed directly under their control?


    I know times have changed but I am sure those of you that did the Sp Olympics can remember some of the US and THEM crap that went on. That was a diffeerent situation and accross the ranks I know but it all comes fron the same attitude. Just different means of expression!!

    Leave a comment:

  • Barry
    Lt General

  • Barry
    replied
    Originally posted by The Prisoner View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong says he, putting his hand out, but it was always my understanding that in general an RDF person has no authority over a PDF person, unless it was a specific duty or detail eg guard commander.

    In this case I would be of the opinion that the RDF person had no direct authority over the PDF person. But that does not excuse bad manners.
    The PDF Pte was not under the command of the Sgt, so the Sgt could not say "you go clean out the toilets", but that does not mean that the Pte has the right to tell the Sgt to **** off, or that the Sgt cannot give the Pte a bollocking for failing to respect rank (though a lot of NCOs won't do that, as Hedgehog said)

    Leave a comment:

  • The Prisoner
    Number 6

  • The Prisoner
    replied
    Correct me if I'm wrong says he, putting his hand out, but it was always my understanding that in general an RDF person has no authority over a PDF person, unless it was a specific duty or detail eg guard commander.

    In this case I would be of the opinion that the RDF person had no direct authority over the PDF person. But that does not excuse bad manners.

    I agree that ringing the PDF CO was the nuclear option but ha what the f***. I just love when actions have consequences.

    Leave a comment:

  • hptmurphy
    Commander in Chief

  • hptmurphy
    replied
    While the "softly softly" approach suggested by Murf is usually the best way to get things done with the PDF, when a Pte thinks that he can tell a NCO (PDF or RDF) to "F**k off I don't give the keys to you lot" then said Pte should be getting his heels together and learning that talking to a NCO like that is a good way to end up having a one sided conversation with the CO (complete with escorts). It's completely unacceptable, and as Hedgehog said, shows a distinct lack of moral courage
    This is from a person who has dealt with far more disciplinary issues in the work place and having to deal with unions etc is obliged to work.....It may not be applicable in a miliatry situation..or may cause rebuke from fellow NCOs...but this is how I operate.

    Its nothing to do with moral courage...its how people within civvy life are trained how to deal with situations without having to introduce confrontation.

    Repect and rank and all that is fine in certain situations but has very little place when it come s around to getting on with it and getting the job done..and avoiding open and hostile confrontation.

    In all the time I have served I have once lost the plot in public while dealing with an equivalent rank...it ended up in the proscribed military fashion....felt like a ****ing school boy in front of a headmaster..never again...delegate upwards...I'll manage at my own level with people who are willing to co operate..those who fail to comply can be dealt with by others whose remit it is to sort these things...I won't be loosing sleep.

    Leave a comment:

  • GoneToTheCanner
    C/S

  • GoneToTheCanner
    replied
    Hi all
    I once had an Officer, from another Air Corps sub-unit, snap his fingers at me and demand that his aircraft be refuelled. I lost the plot and told him where to stick his fingers, using Willie O'Dea style language, about how I wasn't fom his unit and he could go and effing find his own lazy wankers to refuel his effing aircraft,etc,etc....When he reacted in much the same fashion, I challenged him to go before his CO, who was sitting in his office nearby, with me and repeat our "chat". Meanwhile, my colleagues, who had beeen tending the King Air with me, took the opportunity to vanish.The Officer and I went, both fuming, to the Boss's office and we individually explained our case. As I was waiting outside, I cooled down and realised what I'd done and began to really sweat.I had my turn before the Boss and told my side of the story. The Boss got the Officer to apologise for snapping his fingers and I apologised to him for my TD-style language.The Officer was then dismissed and I then got a polite but pointed bollicking from the Boss.Much chastened, I left as quickly and as quietly as I could.Naturally, as soon as I got outside, I found out that the whole camp knew about it, courtesy of the ever-efficient Don grapevine.I got the slagging of a lifetime but never, ever got bothered again when about my business on the King Air....
    regards
    GttC

    Leave a comment:

  • Groundhog
    Chief of the Diet Tribe

  • Groundhog
    replied
    My reading of the situation is that Pte X needs to be disciplined. There's absolutely nothing stopping the RDF Sgt from writing up a charge sheet and forwarding it to the unit involved. He's going to have to face up to discouragement from his PDF Cadre and CO who don't want to bother with such problems but that's life. Another problem of course is the OS. Is he allowed hand over the keys according to his orders? For certain the RDF Sgt (or anybody else for that matter) had no business demanding the keys. Referring the matter to his CO was a good idea in order to get the cars filled. The issue needs to be followed up with disciplinary action for the insubordination which will in turn ensure that filling of cars by RDF personel is dealt with properly in future.
    Groundhog
    Chief of the Diet Tribe
    Last edited by Groundhog; 5 October 2007, 10:28.

    Leave a comment:

  • luchi
    Cut backs

  • luchi
    replied
    Well, I have to say I agree with you all in different ways.

    If said sgt "got tough" where would it have got him?
    Maybe next time the pte would say to himself "this is a sgt I will treat him so" or maybe not. He may even enforce the SOP and the whole bks would have to wait for the OS to fill.

    In the incident as it happens the RDF Sgt just followed the chain of command. The next available senior person available that night, other than the missing OS, just happened to be the CO. If it was during the day I am sure there would have been many other solutions.

    There has been an incident were an RDF Sgt (now CQ) did exactly that. (Stood Pte to attention etc). When the duty NCO came in, also a Sgt, the RDF Sgt was basically told he had no business standing any PDF man to attention. So what do you do?

    Its ok for HH to talk about not having the balls to use the rank as he has the PDF status that gives extra weight to his balls. There are, as I have said else where, certain intergrated ptes that are saying "you can't tell us what to do because we're not under your command". Problem is know one knows if they are correct so rather than rock the boat you try work around it.

    Leave a comment:

  • Barry
    Lt General

  • Barry
    replied
    While the "softly softly" approach suggested by Murf is usually the best way to get things done with the PDF, when a Pte thinks that he can tell a NCO (PDF or RDF) to "F**k off I don't give the keys to you lot" then said Pte should be getting his heels together and learning that talking to a NCO like that is a good way to end up having a one sided conversation with the CO (complete with escorts). It's completely unacceptable, and as Hedgehog said, shows a distinct lack of moral courage.

    Leave a comment:

  • hptmurphy
    Commander in Chief

  • hptmurphy
    replied
    It is the one Defence Forces, I have pulled Airmen and Sailors (dont go there)

    and pulled RDF people for indiscpline

    it is the Job of EVERY NCO to enforce discpline
    yes agreed totally but there are situations where dealing with situations by having a third part such as an NCO who is more familiar with the individual involved..the NCO in charge of the section has a right to know where his men have crossed the line and there maybe other issues at stake and informing the third party i would say repect for this rank in advising him he has a problem in his unit.His descision on the subject maybe key to case building in regard to other such instances.

    Would you prefer if one of your kid was bollocked by a narky neighbour and was not disciplined or would you prefer to have the neighbour call around and let you decide on the punishment.

    I would have far more respect for the NCO who might have let fly and thne come back ann informed me or had a pproached me without confonting the otehr guy and asked me to sort it and let me deside on a further course of action while taking the time to thank the mentioned NCO for taking the time off to keep me informed.

    If the incident had been dealt with on the spot and as happened reffered to the NCO nine times out of ten the private will now comply knowing that the RDF sergeant was unwilling to confront the situation and get into a mire of military law and merely aquired the help of some one who could solve the issue without the RDF NCO having to deal with this guy sumarily.

    I still think it was a reasonable call andleft the PDF man under no illusions that he may have got away with trying to make a wanker of a RDF sergeant.

    Until the PDF and RDF learn to work together in stamping out this type of incident....respect is a long way off.

    I can see where HH is coming from and that the RDF man should have been more curtious but this was not even going to solve the problem as the PDF private was actuall obeying SOPs albeit with his own touch. the RDf SGt was already agrieved at this and would possibly lost sight of the issue by bollocking the private and in the heat of the moment the actual issue of the keys would have become secondary.

    engage brain before using mouth.

    The NCO should have just walked i there in the first place and told said Pte I want the keys! Which says to Pte X this guy is a REAL NCO with balls
    far too cofrontational and only gives over to ill feeling in the future and can lead to some embarrasment all round.
    hptmurphy
    Commander in Chief
    Last edited by hptmurphy; 5 October 2007, 10:56.

    Leave a comment:

  • Snacker
    Battalion Sargeant Major

  • Snacker
    replied
    You guys are both right but in fairness HH, the Pte idn't going to stand to attention to anyone who he has no respect for.
    The NCO should have just walked i there in the first place and told said Pte I want the keys! Which says to Pte X this guy is a REAL NCO with balls, I better do as he says! If he then can't issue the keys without asking the OS then so be it, but Pte X's attitude is going to be a lot different to that NCO.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X