The wonderful world of Sisu

[Come-quickly]

I was doing some research for someone else and I came across this data on the XA-180/90/200 series of Wheeled AFVs.
I wondered what are peoples opinions on the decision to rely on a small force of expensive APC's for our protection/mobility requirements, what about the use of wheeled armoured vehicles in other roles such as air defence, and Command and control.
Mainly however I just wanted to post Sizu pics.
(Although I might mention that Denmark picked the XA-201 over the Piranha)
In production SAM vehicle with 8 cell crotale launcher (XA-181)


The XA-185
When the production of the 611 engine was going towards its end Oy Sisu-Auto Ab, which was the company responsible for the XA-series, was forced to develop a new vehicle designated XA-185. This vehicle was to be powered by the new and more powerful Valmet 612 engine, which featured a totally new transmission. The XA-185 is very similar to the XA-180, but is different in many ways. It now has more firing ports and more crew hatches. Another improvement is the fitting of a quick-camouflage system. That system includes a camouflage net that reportedly makes it virtually invisible to infra-red and radar observation. The last XA-180 was delivered in January 1994 and since then, only XA-185's have been manufactured.



The new XA-200 series has improved armour (with the loss of amphibiosity) with provision for rapidly fitting more (protection against 14.5mm HMGs), and an uprated engine along with an improved seating system similar to that used in the PIII,.
Sweden has purchased 106 X-203s APC and XA-202s models which are basic XA-200 models fitted with a 20mm turret (I mentioned this purchase a few weeks ago)


The JanTronic 1000 is the Giraffe battle field surveillance/Air defence radar currently employed by the Irish army mounted on a Sizu APC body.


There is also and XA-185 based TOW vehicle in service


There is a mortar carrier AMOS
Advanced MOrtar System (AMOS)
High rate of fire thanks to the double barrel concept
Low chassis loads thanks to the recoiling mechanism; even a wheeled chassis is usable
Ballistic protection against infantry weapons and splinters for crew
Muzzle blast and NBC protection for crew
Large on-board ammunition supply
Rapid deployment thanks to instrumentation for vehicle location and attitude; well suited for shoot & scoot tactics
Full 360° traverse without limitations thanks to turret mounting and recoil mechanism
Direct fire capability
Suitable with standard 120 ammunition as well as smart guided ammunition and cargo munitions


Fire support variant with two man 25mm bushmaster turret.


This is the XA-186 variant in service with Norway.
Enough armor to stop 12,7 mm and possibly 14,5 mm rounds
Can withstand a 155 mm shell detonating at 10m
Protects crew from anti-tank mine blasts
Can drive at 60 km/h for over 5 km with all six tyres punctured, only slowed down by the friction produced by the flat tyres
Engine Valmet 612 DWI 248 hp 7,4 liter Turbo Intercooled.
Armament 12,7 mm QCB, 8 smoke/frag grenade dischargers

And finally the latest command post variant

[yellowjacket]

The JanTronic 1000 is the Giraffe battle field surveillance/Air defence radar currently employed by the Irish army mounted on a Sisu APC body.

Very interesting. Got a source for this?

[Aidan]

I think means that the radar is in use in Irish service, rather than the radar is in use mounted on that platform.

Question

Why would you want to put a surveillance radar on a wheeled AFV anyway? I mean, great, you're protected from 12.7mm (although the radar isn't) but does that really outweigh the hassle of having your technicians cramped into an AFV hull with all their radar gear, radios, datalinks etc?

[paul g]

there is a comma missing in i-Y's passage, hence the confusion.


Aidan, while the crew might be cramped in an armoured chassis, they are protected against shell fire especially splinters, etc, which they wouldn't be in a soft skin truck, also would be happier driving over a landmine in a Sisu Xa-201 than any soft skin.

C-Q, where did you do your research? Did Denmark buy the XA-201 over the Piranha? Because all the sources i can find state that the Danes bought Piranha IIIH, ordering 22 in 1997, and a further 22 in 2002. The Danes have leased 11 XA-185 ambulances, but only as a stopgap, until the piranha III is ready. As for the XA-201, the photos are really cool etc, but is there a point?

[Come-quickly]

Is there a point?

Not really no, I just came across the info incidental to something else, it's all from one site (Which I meant to post a link to, must hav lost it in the usual way, getting logged out for no reason when I post), quite a few passages are just copied across or paraphrased unquestioningly.
Mainly it was for the photos, generally it was just an exercise in pretty making, although I was surprised to see it fitted with the two man 25mm turret.
Any opinion on the AMOS?

[Come-quickly]

Nordic military vehicles
This is the original link.
The Irish Army's Giraffe is mounted on a flatbed truck as far as I know.

[Truck Driver]

RE: Come-Quickly

Yes, you' re right, the PDF's Giraffe system is mounted on a MAN 4X4 truck.
But obviously, with the phasing out of the MAN 4X4's, the Arty Corps will have to seriously start to think about a replacement vehicle platform for the system soonr rather than later.

Would it be possible that it would be fitted on a few of the next batch of Mowags?

[Come-quickly]

I doubt it, we won't be deploying that Giraffe overseas, and PIIIs are in short supply.
It's also an awfully expensive vehicle for fitting out in that role, the beauty of th Sizu is cost, the PIII was selected for its superiority over the Sizu in certain roles which the were envisaged for the EURRF bn.
But the Sizu is well suited for a range of other roles, I guess you'd have to talk to someone from Sweden to find out how the Pasi has worked out.
It still would be a good Idea to equip a second battalion, with apcs to allow the retention of both rapid reaction and long term commitment mission types.

[paul g]

the only thing is that long term committment a la the lebanon, is largely a thing of the past, secondly, the whole thinking is that the light tactical vehicles, when they arrive, will be deployed in the role you envisage, a lightly armoured patrol vehicle, able to carry four or five soldiers in low intensity operations, whose appearance will give an air of normality to locals, an infantry platoon will have 7 or 8 instead of 4 Piranhas. Rather like the operations of the Dingo by the german army in Kosovo.


Your obsession with the sisu is puzzling, Fuchs is probably a better vehicle, most of the countries you mention who operate it, also have the heavier CV-9030 in service for warfighting, ireland doesn't, therefore, the Piranha is a good compromise, the danes have opted for it, and it seems to perform for them in kosovo very well. .

[Come-quickly]

Long term operations refers to anything over a year in duration i.e. next years staged deployment of a mech inf coy to Kosovo to be brought to battlaion strength over the next 5-7 years.
The problem with the PIII is cost, the obsession with the Sizu is based on much lower cost, satisfactory operational history in Irish service and as much weapons systems flexibility as the PIII.
"Western" defence equipment has been increasing in cost increasingly at a ridiculous rate (avg 21% pa for fighter aircraft according to one Russian site), for instance the RAF's Chinooks bought just before the Falklands war cost 3.5m ea, even calculating normal price inflation and performance enhancements the increase in cost is unjustifiable.
The idea that Ireland should have to sacrifice capability to take part in the military-industrial complex stylee is repulsive.
Incidentally the Finbat we will be operating with in Kosovo will be operationg Sizu's.
The use of of CV90s might be attributed to the fact that the units equipped with them are armoured troops who have to keep up with MBTs acting as independent formations.
Sweden also has BMP-1s for warfighting, so thats hardly an endorsement.

[Farel']

I thought It was SISU???
I am sure thats what it says in the front of the wagons in the curragh anyway...

[Come-quickly]

You may be right but since Sizu/Sisu doesn't exist anymore (now Patria Vehicles, part of the Patria Hagglunds consortium)