RDF Serving Overseas

[expat01]

Should join the PDF?
Dear me, someone better tell the British Army to stop deploying those TA soldiers who should have joined the regular army if they wanted to serve overseas. What utter twaddle.

The professional versus part-timer divide in Ireland is beyond natural. The result of treating the RDF as a glorified boyscout organisation for decades is that, despite seeing it work over and over again in the hot deployments of various armies worldwide, the average Irish soldier, no matter what colour beret he wears, is in his gut incapable of conceiving of Irish reservists serving as soldiers. The length of courses that professional soldiers undergo give the impression that it isn't possible to train a (specifically Irish)reservist to do anything in a shorter time, while happily serving alongside short-timers from other countries when overseas.

I can find you the (equally unfair) reverse view of the professional/part-timer from reservists who have served in hot wars and don't see the point of professional infantry at all.

No amount of cross-training or integration will make one whit of a difference to this double-think until someone finally sends reservists overseas with live ammunition.

[Connaught Stranger]

The British Army system of the Territorial Army was developed years ago, and no doubt helped along by Britain being a full-NATO member, and all the Perks that go with it.

The Irish Reserve Forces is nothing similar, and using the T.A. is not a viable model.

And, if you are going to develop the Reserve Forces of Ireland to the standard of the British T.A. at what cost, any future military Budget of the Permanent Defence Force??

Ireland has a too small military commitment wise to justify that.

What Reserve can you make a comparison with?

The U.S. National Guard? No it has a far bigger Budget allowance.

European Conscript Model? , 18 year olds go in at the start for 18 months service not an odd night a week, weekend, two week Camp. In some European countries the conscript model has been done away with and a smaller professional military is now the way.

No matter what you want to do with the Reserve in Ireland they will always be looked at as a Reserve, and the Political Quick Fix / i.e. cheap and nasty method will always be followed to save the tax-payer money.

Perhaps its time for Ireland to consider getting into bed with NATO, then we can accept all the free mingy's from the USA etc..etc..

Connaught Stranger

[Johnny2Stripes]

Connaught Stranger- not everyone is happy with the career choices they made at 17. Plenty of RDF would join PDF only for age restrictions. (me for one!). Now they cannot join the PDF, but would like to have a role to play as a soldier in the Irish Army. It would do a huge amount for moral and recruitment for the reserve if they were active in some way. There is no doubt many reservests have skills crucial to PDF operations.

my question is what time would be required to bring a 3star RDf soldier to the level of a 3star PDF and the same for an NCO. I dont believe the difference in weeks between the courses is the answer. Obviously practice is essential.

The feeling i am getting from the board so far from RDF and PDF is that this is impossible...

I agree with your considering "getting in to bed with NATO" comment.

[Docman]

If you want to be a soldier and do exactly the same as the P.D.F.

the simple solution is to join the P.D.F.

The Reserve is the Reserve, you know that when you go to join.

If you are not going to make a

commitment and join the Permanent Defence Forces,

then what is the point of wishing or demanding that the Reserve, be allowed to do the

exact same as

the P.D.F. ?

:confused::confused::confused:
Joining the PDF is not a simple solution. There is a lot to consider when taking a big step like that. Nothing simple.

The Reserve is the Reserve. But which Reserve? If you read Army Literature, it is only a matter of time before Reservists go overseas. The Army make out that the RDF do fairly much the same as the PDF just part-time. Look at foreign Reserves and you see them being deployed overseas. When people are in, the RDF bears little semblance to what they saw advertised. Maybe that is a big problem. I still laugh at the times I went recruiting in schools only to see the Centre spread on what a Reservist is issued which was sent out to schools. Most of it is still not on issue.

And who said the RDF were demanding that they do the exact same as the PDF??? That is a new one to me. Yes, Reservists want to be able to contribute in their own way. Deploying overseas is a way for the Army to use many of the skills that Reservists have. Using Reservists cuts down on cost - a big thing given the current severe budgetary constraints. Take a look at IT. The Army are getting a huge amount of free or cheap IT support from Reservists. The RDF practically dominate the Armys Distance Learning sector and do so while only contributing 6 or less weeks a year. Most of the current deluge of soft copy manuals, TIs, TSs etc etc. has been a result of Reservists putting in a lot of free time and effort that the PDF haven't or don't have the skills to do.

[expat01]

The British Army system of the Territorial Army was developed years ago,

So what? Did we miss the Final Reserve Formation Date?

and no doubt helped along by Britain being a full-NATO member, and all the Perks that go with it.

Waitaminute, it was formed years ago - before NATO. Can't have it both ways. Perks? What perks? Free hats and T-shirts? Budget funding by NATO? Opportunity to train in Germany? Clarify what perks being a member of NATO gives that permit Britain to have a volunteer part-time reserve while precluding us.

The Irish Reserve Forces is nothing similar, and using the T.A. is not a viable model.

I disagree, they are a model we could follow easily precisely because they exist in a similar cultural and judicial environment. I suspect you have no idea what you mean by this. Prove your argument

And, if you are going to develop the Reserve Forces of Ireland to the standard of the British T.A. at what cost, any future military Budget of the Permanent Defence Force
Ireland has a too small military commitment wise to justify that.

See above coment about you not knowing what you mean by this. Nothing I've read about the TA is not reproduceable in Ireland and reserve forces cost significantly less than permanent forces. Therefore I suggest that your comment about the size of Ireland's military is wrong, both on the count of a small commitment not justifying well-developed reserves, and about the notion that our military commitment is small now relative to the size of our forces, or likely to remain so small in the future.

What Reserve can you make a comparison with? Etc..

The British TA, for a form of organisation. Or perhaps the Australian reserves.
In terms of short-training, short or block courses and the general capability of reserve troops then of course any of the other options you dismiss can provide lessons, as well as evidence that reserve forces are viable. For an extreme example, if the US can take men in for a regular basic training period then relegate them to reserve service, that is an option Ireland could look at. The fact that other nations can take men in years after their full-time training, when they have had annual periods of training no greater than the RDF in between, then send them into action is a proof of concept. However, we need not go into any of that because your casually-dismissed TA, or the Aussies, in fact provide a very viable option despite your ill-considered bluster to the contrary.

As I said, utter twaddle. Try again.

[ZULU]

IMHO the prime difference between the RDF and PDF is that:
for the RDF it is something you want to do and can walk away from at almost any time. Hence we are reservists!

BOLLIX! You signed on the line. Heaven forbid something drastic did happen - that's why the Reserve is there. To spin up an already active reserve force to supplement the PDF.

For the PDF it is a way of life. They are soldiers!!

And what? RDF personnel are civilians that wouldn't know how to soldier even if they had an appifiny?

You can train everone PDF and RDF to exactly the same standard but someone who is a soldier has to accept certain possible "hazards of the job".

Again - Are RDF not soldiers while in uniform? Not everyone's just in it for the driving qualifications.

1. I could be killed!! ........... now what good is employment protection here?
For those of you that say you want to go over seas how many of you are really ready to accept that you just might not come back?

What good is being employed full stop. Applies to PDF and RDF.

2. I could be crippled!!......... Df pers would be retired on disability pension. Any professionals willing to accept that?

I'll bet the PROFESSIONAL soldiers think about it too rather than the disability pension.

Question: Whats stopping an reservist from receiving this if they were crippled while on active duty, home or abroad? (Don't know)

3. I could be maimed or disfigured ......... may or may not be discharged but certainally would be life changing.

If you are injured in a way that stops you returning to your work and lifestyle should this bespoke employment protection also include lifestyle protection. Should you be compensated for loss of potential earnings as a soldier or what ever was your "potentian" professional earnings

Well I guess people will have to take out income protection, life assurance and insurance same as most other armed forces.

[ZULU]

[QUOTE=Connaught Stranger;203804]

If you are not going to make a

commitment and join the Permanent Defence Forces,

then what is the point of wishing or demanding that the Reserve, be allowed to do the

exact same as

the P.D.F. ?

If thats the case why have a reserve at all if we're not going to put in a commitment?

There cannot be two separate standing military institutions in the country.

There aren't. The RDF and PDF both fall under the title The Irish Defence Force.

In my Int Pln alone, we have:

an Artic Driver,
Qualified EMT,
Mechanical Engineer,
Fitter,
IT systems specialist,
Inst & Control Engineer,
PhD in Insurgency and Counter Insurgency and military history,
Construction Health and Safety Inspector,
Civil Engineer,
with a couple who can speak French, German, Spanish, Dutch.

to name but a few civil qualifications.

All have at least 6 years RDF service as well as one year Int Res training. They have all carried out LFTT and some have been experience of being Comdrs in a PDF company.

3 are ex professional soldiers both PDF and US military with overseas experience

But of course the DF wouldn't have any interest in using these people overseas because....?

[concussion]

To put a bit of perspective on it, during the Princess of Wales Royal Regiment deployment to Iraq in 2004(?)(as followed in the book "Dusty Warriors") several TA were called up for the duration of the tour. One of them, who went as a rifleman and who had no specific civi qualifications (ie engineer, accountant) had only just completed his 2 week course with his TA unit. Nothing more, and held held his own among the regular troops. While not ideal, it shows whats attainable with the most basic of training.

[Connaught Stranger]

Guys you are missing the basic point here, it has to do with Finance, and Finance alone, After WW2 the British Military had a large commitment in Germany, British Military conscripts were available to be sent
not just for duty in Germany, but, anywhere in the world from Malaysia, Kong Kong, Aden, on active service and involved in Combat roles, the British had the money to do this. Their being in N.A.T.O. had benefits, and that can not be denied.

Ireland was / is a completely different kettle of fish, probably the largest military formation seen on this island was during W.W.2 "The Emergency", as soon as it was allowable the military Force was reduced to almost nothing, ill-equipped, ill-funded, and very little care and attention given to it, and it remained that way until the troubles in the North circa 1968.

Even with a commitment to the United Nations back as far as the first missions, and the Congo, funding was poor, little by little the Permanent Defence Forces were improved, but sometimes even the money received from the U.N. by the Irish Government, for services rendered is not ploughed back into the Defence Forces, (as with a payment from the UN that was used to compensate farmers after the Shannon flooded in the mid-1980's) but, again when it came to Reserve Expenditure it was begrudgingly given, if at all.

Already on one post here a member of this forum has alluded:

"the average Irish soldier, no matter what colour beret he wears, is in his gut incapable of conceiving of Irish reservists serving as soldiers."

The average Irish soldier has no say in it, its all controlled by Finance, via the Department of Defence.

with regards:

The length of courses that professional soldiers undergo give the impression that it isn't possible to train a (specifically Irish)reservist to do anything in a shorter time, while happily serving alongside short-timers* from other countries when overseas.

* Most of those short-timers from other countries are conscripted for 1 year to 18 months, straight through (thats their commitment, they do not come from a one night a week, weekend, two weeks a year type force,) These people co from Civilian to recruit, trained person, serve their time and then leave, they are on-call if need be, and many of these countries have the finance to equip and train these forces, at this point in time the Irish Government does not.

Connaught Stranger.

[luchi]

BOLLIX! You signed on the line. Heaven forbid something drastic did happen - that's why the Reserve is there. To spin up an already active reserve force to supplement the PDF.

God how many sign on the line each year?
Where are the all?
Does everyone in your unit show up every parade?
When was the last member of your unit charged for not turning up?

What I am saying is that being a soldier is as much a frame of mind as it is training. Some, maybe you, have it but many don't

Again - Are RDF not soldiers while in uniform?

No many if not most are civvis training in military skils under the direction of the DF.
As I said IMHO you are a soldier 24/7 and not just when in a uniform!!!

Not everyone's just in it for the driving qualifications.

Seriously I don't know anyone that falls into that category. Personally I had my licence about 2 years before I got my 154.

Quote:

2. I could be crippled!!......... Df pers would be retired on disability pension. Any professionals willing to accept that?

I'll bet the PROFESSIONAL soldiers think about it too rather than the disability pension.

What I was getting at here is that PDF pers retire on DF disability. Thats what you sign up for. So lets say its your buddy the Civil Eng. Will he accept DF pension? Or will he be looking for some security that gives him the €50,000 that he should be earning? Or if he is an experienced CEng that could be up t0 €150k. Do you realy think he is going to settle for €300 per week for the life.

Well I guess people will have to take out income protection, life assurance and insurance same as most other armed forces.

Read the fine print
Most insurance and life assurance policies do not cover you if you enter a war zone or if killed/injured as a result of acts of terrorism in areas were such acts are common. (also many do not cover extreme sports which includes airsoft and paint ball!!!:redface So if you so off with the DF you are accepting the complete financial package of the DF.

So it IMHO it comes to:
Do you want to go over seas as a soldier, accepting all the risks and the potential result of those risks?
or
Do you want to do a service under the Irish flag, Where you will do tasks for the DF but at all times be kept safe, Where you are secure in the knowledge that your civvi job is waiting and if things go wrong there is compensation to ensure you keep the life you hoped for?

[ARNGScout]

I was going to stay out of this but I think I have something to offer so here's my 2 cents....

First off Luchi....

No many if not most are civvis training in military skils under the direction of the DF.
As I said IMHO you are a soldier 24/7 and not just when in a uniform!!!

I have to say that this is nonsense. While you are employeed as a soldier you are fcuk all use when you're out of uniform in civvy street - you're as useful as a...oh yes, a reservist not in uniform. When in uniform a reservist is more than capable of handling most if not all of the duties his PDF counterpart does. I spent time up on the border to relieve some of the PDF for time off as they were so stretched. Did we need "special" training - eh no!.

Having been in the FCA for 11 years and now over 14 in the National Guard I can say that there are many Irish Reservists that could slot into an overseas deployment with a train-up period and they would perform as well as there PDF counterparts. While budget differences is a big factor between let's say the RDF and Nat Guard it's all relative. There are major equipement shortfalls here with Guard units - even those that are deploying - don't think that we have everything we need - far from it. Many reservists/Guardsmen are more than capable of holding their own alongside their active duty counterparts.

I think one of the big issues here are the egos of the PDF. The thought that a "bagger" could do their job does not sit well with them. RDF will eventually serve overseas in all capacities - it is inevitable. Will there be some growing pains, absolutely, but it is in the PDF's best interests to accept this and help them transition into the role to ensure that their contribution is not hindered by egos and stupidity.

[BANDIT]

Hey guys people are obviously a bit insecure.. Both Regs and Reservists. Good points on both arguements.
I do agree that soldiering is not just about completeing a trg course . When I served I met several FCA guys who were top class ..Not that they were super troopers but they knew the basics , were fairly reliable etc. I would have preferred some of them to some of the useless regulars But even though some of the regs in mv opinion were useless they still had gone thru the same trg had achieved a minimum standard etc
Having said that I also met FCA guys who were 3 stars etc and honestly they could hardly march .. I was afraid of having them doing a barrack guard with me . just waiting for an AD.
I also served with in another country where most of the guys army, police , a lot of special forces etc were reservists but they had all done national service so all had achieved a min standard of training and also had spent enough time on full time trg etc to get into the soldiering state of mind.
In my opinion reservist need a min of 8 weeks intense full time trg and then do the weekends etc. Having said that Regs also need lots of Trg and retraining not sure they did a lot when I was in the DF.
As regards ex PDF , other armies, Its ridiculous that the DF do not utilize them more ..
Haing said that maybe the officer class could not handle guys who had been in coming back as reservist too much old soldier shit and bad for good order status quo etc.

[luchi]

ARNGScout, I actually agree with every word you said. I too slotted into a role on the boarder with no extra special training. Thats nothing new. I also believe that RDF will go overseas. I just don't believe that they will go as equals, expected to take equal risk etc.
As I say this is opinion and could be proved wrong.

I am only commenting on what is written in this thread. Does the National Gaurd ensure employment protection in the manner that some in this thread have been saying is a pre-requisit for any RDF person going over seas.

You cannot deny that the attitude of someone that is there to do a job and go home is the same as someone whos life is the DF or vice verse.

[Docman]

God how many sign on the line each year?
Where are the all?
Does everyone in your unit show up every parade?
When was the last member of your unit charged for not turning up?

All of my unit attended full training last year. One guy missed one parade and another guy missed a day or 2 of FTT. Both informed the unit that they would be doing so well in advance (2 months). One guy was nearly charged for not showing up at training and not having permission to be absent. Instead he was RTUed. Then again, that was Integration.

The right "frame of mind", as you call it is there in the Integrated Reserve. And they will prob be the only ones going overseas for a while.

And as for assuming that there is no risk in the RDF, you must be in a different Reserve to me. When getting Life assurance, the fact that I was in the RDF had a major effect upon my application. Between Heavy weapons cses, small arms, grenades, etc. etc they took a while to come back with a final contract. Does your Assurance Company know you are in the Reserve and would they still be willing to cover you?

If I do go overseas, I accept all the risk that come with it. I'm not blind to the fact that it is dangerous and that I may not come back, But then again, being in the RDF for me is already a risk. Between a grenade shoot last year, LFTT, range practices, PDF Corporals () etc, it was not a major risk but it was still a risk. I accepted that. And I expect that it will be dangerous overseas.... but I accept that also.

[DeV]

If you are not going to make a

commitment and join the Permanent Defence Forces,

So the reserve aren't committed, the majority of the reserve are EXTREMELY committed, they would do more if they could!

There are a couple of things holding the reserve back:
- Government commitment to the RDF
- DOD commitment to the RDF
- PDF commitment to the RDF
- and some of the RDF themselves

TA isn't the model to follow???

It is the only model the DF could afford, they generally do shorter modular courses than the regulars.

An Australian reservists does 28 days recruit training followed by 2-7 weeks specialist training (that is the model most reserves use)!.