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  • Integration - A Failure???

    Just wanted to get peoples opinion of this - Was Integration 2007 a failure?

    If so:

    Whos fault was it?

    Have the People who signed up in 2007 been shafted?

    Should the officers involved (The RDF Lts who commanded the platoons etc) fall on their swords and resign their commissions?
    63
    I was Integrated and it was a failure
    11.11%
    7
    I was Integrated and it was a success
    25.40%
    16
    I was not Integrated and it was a failure
    46.03%
    29
    I was not Integrated and it was a success
    17.46%
    11

  • #2
    Ask yourself-

    Was it open to all?
    Widely advertised?
    Where people made fully aware of what was involved before they signed up?

    Comment


    • #3
      Was Integration 2007 a failure?
      Define 'a failure'

      tactical failure ? i.e. did your troops achieve the mission objective

      strategic failure ? something larger ?
      "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

      "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Docman View Post
        Should the officers involved (The RDF Lts who commanded the platoons etc) fall on their swords and resign their commissions?
        From what I've seen and heard, the RDF junior officers who went integrated had little to no input into the actual substance of integration (ie what training went on), and were very much along for the ride with their platoon, training with them, under PDF command.

        Comment


        • #5
          As someone looking from the outside in and knows loads of the lads who went interbagging in 07, id say it was a success.

          The first time something new is tried theres always gonna be snags, the lads that I know of learned a lot from it, the lads that couldnt do it last year are gagging to give it go this year and it showed some people just how REALLY CRAP they are as a sub unit commander when half their unit leaves to do it cause they have no other choice!!!!!

          Hopefully improvements will be made where necessary and lessons will be learned.

          As for people falling on swords, if they didnt have them in the first place, they couldnt fall on them!!!!!!!
          Woo Hoo, finally moderated!!!!! In that select band of people who speak their mind instead of being sheep!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Barry View Post
            From what I've seen and heard, the RDF junior officers who went integrated had little to no input into the actual substance of integration (ie what training went on), and were very much along for the ride with their platoon, training with them, under PDF command.
            But that does not lessen their responsibility. They were selected a the commanders. It is their responsibility to ensure it succeeds. However this is more a an "just out of Interest" question and not an opinion.

            Originally posted by trellheim View Post
            Define 'a failure'

            tactical failure ? i.e. did your troops achieve the mission objective

            strategic failure ? something larger ?
            The fact that it has been changed so much for 2008 - did last Years Integrated Guys fail.... could they ever have succeeded?

            Quote from the Steering Group report.
            The assignment of these selected RDF personnel for integration in
            PDF units such as infantry battalions, artillery regiments and cavalry squadrons will be
            intended to provide the receiving PDF units with an enhanced operational and collective
            training capability, in accordance with the Defence Forces Review Implementation Plan
            (1996-98). In particular, the integration of RDF sub-units would enhance the capacity of PDF
            units to discharge the Defence Forces contingency defence role.
            It didn't achieve the mission objective - The mission was to prepare RDF Personnel to be Integrated into, and become part of, PDF units in order to provide those units with enhanced abilities. Well, the PDF get nothing out of Integration 2008, In fact Integration 2008l can no longer be considered "Integration" - The "Integrated" personnel are no longer Integrated into the PDF - they form no part of the Parent PDF unit.

            Just being the Devils advocate
            Last edited by Docman; 9 February 2008, 21:49.

            Comment


            • #7
              I would say that integration and the integrated lads were failed by the higher ups in the RDF. from what I was told, it succeeded in some areas, and in my opinion the units that it succeeded in should have been used as a template as to how it should have been implemented. It would be a shame for officers and NCOs who were integrated to bite the bullet and leave now after they have gained some new knowledge directly from the PDF that can be used to improve standards across the RDF. If anybody should fall on their sword, it should be those that have pushed against it.
              What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

              Comment


              • #8
                Those against it do not see it as such.
                "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Sorry gents, but i just cant see how it failed?????

                  (the examples I give are based ONLY on my unit and the intergrated personnell in it.)

                  The PDF unit needed to make sure ALL of the RDF personnel were up to scratch, thats why all the rdf troops were treated the same regardless of rank.

                  Of course the RDF had no say in the training program. Why would they have??? It was basically a PDF 3star training program with a couple of appetizers thrown in.

                  The PDF unit were never gonna get anything out of it except perhaps learning what the RDF are like to work with.

                  It was a first time try out and Im sure as it progresses year by year it'll get even better.

                  What did people expect?? to do the years training and then start doing duties?? to go overseas??

                  Back in the 70's and early 80's the fca did border patrols, CIT's, barrack guards, guards at vital installations and some even went fulltime fca.

                  I wonder why that all changed?????????????????
                  (and NO it wasnt cause of any IRA ceasefire)
                  Woo Hoo, finally moderated!!!!! In that select band of people who speak their mind instead of being sheep!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Speaking from a PDF instuctors point of view i believe last years hard work has been squandered.By that i mean the return on the investment in time, money and equipment has been negligable.The whole idea was to train these folks up so they could then integrate with us.So we spent 33 days spead over a year doing this and what happens? Some numbnuts decides to change the whole thing so they are forced to re-apply and repeat all they have done allready.There should have been a progression in training not a rehash.Where's the forward planning in that? This is the same situation that happens in non integrated units esp with 2 stars.Having to repeat in year two what they did in year one.No wonder they dont stick around!
                    Also any use we could have put the lads too like taking the strain of some duties off the overstretched regular troops has been lost.
                    The new integration if you can call it that is gonna be even more devisive.What integration 2008 boils down to is an advanced skills course for the rdf.Why not just call it that.
                    It is all just a cost cutting measure as the dept wont have to pay as many PDF instrs(whenever that materialises ) and i will bet they will cut back on the scale of issue for the students as they can now argue that they dont need the same kit as us as they wont be operating alongside us.
                    In summary integation 2008 is a joke.Brought about beacuse of lack of uptake last year and naysayers who talked it down.This has played right into the dept of finances hands and probably scuppered it for future years.Back to square one.Well done!!!
                    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Is this a good time to say "told you so"!!!

                      although I don't think this is the end of intergration. IMHO at the end of this year it will be revied again and the powers that be will realise that it was not the way to go. Then the 2009 version will be more like the 2007 version with a little tweek and so on until they get it just right.

                      Its a bit like Goldilocks and the three bears.
                      "Too hard" - Poor rdf men were scared to join - but some loved it.
                      "too soft" - Poor RDF men weren't chalanged enough - and the PDF lads were boared
                      "just right" - package of training that improves skills and is benificial to all.

                      No pilot scheme is a faileur. Even if you don't reach your goals you still can advance, maybe not in the direction you want but there are lessons to be learned.
                      Without supplies no army is brave.

                      —Frederick the Great,

                      Instructions to his Generals, 1747

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by apod View Post
                        In summary integation 2008 is a joke.Brought about beacuse of lack of uptake last year and naysayers who talked it down.This has played right into the dept of finances hands and probably scuppered it for future years.Back to square one.Well done!!!
                        the lack of uptake was due to the poor communication for the top, we had a "brief" about integration from a pdf commandant who couldnt answer the majority of questions posed to him, a lot of his answers were "that hasnt been finalised yet" etc. People arent going to commit to something when the people who are supposed to be in the know or running the thing dont know what is happening.

                        i think a lot of the pdf thought there would be a queue to get into integration, of course the problem is that the pdf think that inside every bagger theres a frustrated black hat dying to get out, that isnt the case in reality
                        You're even dumber than I tell people

                        You might have been infected but you never were a bore

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          And so on with the litany of "I told you it wouldn't work" and "it'll kill our unit" ....


                          Like it or not : This is policy. From the top. From what I'm hearing, "Yet to Be Finalized" is correct.
                          I agree with
                          i think a lot of the pdf thought there would be a queue to get into integration
                          Although RDF, I'm surprised there isn't. a queue. There's still a lot of



                          out there and it's not just at the officer level.
                          Last edited by trellheim; 11 February 2008, 13:37.
                          "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                          "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by spudula View Post
                            interbagging in 07
                            As for accuracy, presumably the missile carries MRVs with terminal phase sensors and guidance.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by apod View Post
                              Speaking from a PDF instuctors point of view i believe last years hard work has been squandered.By that i mean the return on the investment in time, money and equipment has been negligable.The whole idea was to train these folks up so they could then integrate with us.So we spent 33 days spead over a year doing this and what happens? Some numbnuts decides to change the whole thing so they are forced to re-apply and repeat all they have done allready.There should have been a progression in training not a rehash.Where's the forward planning in that? This is the same situation that happens in non integrated units esp with 2 stars.Having to repeat in year two what they did in year one.No wonder they dont stick around!
                              Also any use we could have put the lads too like taking the strain of some duties off the overstretched regular troops has been lost.
                              The new integration if you can call it that is gonna be even more devisive.What integration 2008 boils down to is an advanced skills course for the rdf.Why not just call it that.
                              It is all just a cost cutting measure as the dept wont have to pay as many PDF instrs(whenever that materialises ) and i will bet they will cut back on the scale of issue for the students as they can now argue that they dont need the same kit as us as they wont be operating alongside us.In summary integation 2008 is a joke.Brought about beacuse of lack of uptake last year and naysayers who talked it down.This has played right into the dept of finances hands and probably scuppered it for future years.Back to square one.Well done!!!
                              On a flyer that was given to everyone in my Bn we were told we would get all`your guci gear. But on a more serious note i do agree that, even though my Bn did not do integretion, that last years work seems to be a waste of time now and that the new integration does nothing to help the PDF at all
                              Sir I cant find my peltors........Private they are on your face

                              Comment

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