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Integration - A Failure???

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  • #16
    It wasn't given to all but we did get a visit from Bde Ops.

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    • #17
      Also any use we could have put the lads too like taking the strain of some duties off the overstretched regular troops has been lost.
      It was a primary concern that this type of exercise would not take place taking guys in just to fill in for duties is a totally different concept to actually raising a platoon to upskill it.

      Integration as a failure. What has it acheived short term.... a group of people upskilled given the time constraints this has to be a plus.

      If this training is passed back within the units and these people are given oppertunity to share the knowledge.. thats a qualified sucess.

      Where will the people who have upskilled be in 3 years and will they attain sufficent rank to ensure their level of training is passed on.. thats an unknown quantity.

      Was the time sufficent to bring people up to speed within their own rank structure...a definite no.

      The two year time period was too spread out. It needs to be more intense run en bloc with refreshers only there is no way this can work with present lack of legislation.

      It has however proved that non specialised people cannot be deployed in operational roles overseas etc as the army cannot accomadate the type of traing regime required to bring guys up the levels of training required within their rank.

      The training seemed to be non rank specific so now we have NCO's and Officers who are as capable as a PDF three star and expect to serve alongside their PDF equivalenst because the have done some of the groundwork.

      I lay balme or accustation at no individual for action rather at those who tried to sell the whole concept of a badly flawed re org of the reserve in line with a concept of integration that was never going to be what it should have been.

      Respect for those who took part and commited and those who supported training.

      I just hope the 'FOG OF DPM' has lifted and now the reality of the diversity of the abilities of the PDF and RDF and the roles they play are realised.

      I think the naval service model as regarding their problems with a reserve should have been analysed further.. they tried it but getting away from the 9 to 5 for some people for prolonged periods of time to get experience in the role is not entirely feasible and that was only at the base level.
      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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      • #18
        I think I have to take issue with some points Murph


        Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
        It was a primary concern that this type of exercise would not take place taking guys in just to fill in for duties is a totally different concept to actually raising a platoon to upskill it.
        The training objective is to enable the the RDF to partake in limited operational taskings with PDF, serving as part of a Rifle Pln PDF.



        Was the time sufficent to bring people up to speed within their own rank structure...a definite no.
        The time commitment of the Int Res 2007 was sufficent to test peoples ability within their rank. Otherwise they shouldn't be in their RDF rank, let alone serving in the Int Res with PDF. Integration isn't their to train people how to do their ranks job. Thats what the RDF is for.

        The two year time period was too spread out. It needs to be more intense run en bloc with refreshers only there is no way this can work with present lack of legislation.
        I wouldn't call weeknight parades, 6 weekends and four weeks training (FTT and PSO) in the space of 8months spread out. It was pretty intensive for all purposes.

        It has however proved that non specialised people cannot be deployed in operational roles overseas etc as the army cannot accomadate the type of traing regime required to bring guys up the levels of training required within their rank.
        Why would the army want non-specialists overseas anyway? The skills survey going out at present is indicative that an RDF may be just a Infantry grunt, but his civi qualification may be that of a fitter or electrician that is badly needed to fill a role overseas.

        Again, the Int Res or the PDF is not responsible for people carrying out their rank. Thats the function of their training in the RDF.

        The training seemed to be non rank specific so now we have NCO's and Officers who are as capable as a PDF three star and expect to serve alongside their PDF equivalenst because the have done some of the groundwork.
        Weapons skills, navigation, first aid - Basic soldiering skills at a level of 3*PDF were given to the Int Res 2008 personnel. Thats because alot of the range practisies and weapons are unavailable to RDF. The ability of a person to perform as a Cpl/Sgt/Officer is down to their training in the RDF.

        If you took away the SRAAW, NVE, Live Fire training, Grenade skills away from a PDF NCO, where would that leave them in comparison to RDF NCO? Essentially the same, albiet the PDF NCO gets more practise at what he's left with. MOI, Admin, leadership qualities, fitness requirements are the same.

        Respect for those who took part and commited and those who supported training.
        Thanks and duly appreciated
        "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

        Comment


        • #19
          The commnets are appreciated from one has been there and certainly outlines any ideas that were created by what was being sold

          The training objective is to enable the the RDF to partake in limited operational taskings with PDF, serving as part of a Rifle Pln PDF.
          This for me was an issue as outlined in my thoughts as yes duties are a nessacry evil but these are things that could impinge on training.. guy goews in for a weekend .. does guard on a staurday rest off sunday.. no training.

          Allocated paid duty days would be far more economic and no drain on actual training time.

          Your point in which you point ou the the RDF is responsible for the skills levels required to hold rank opens an interesing path.

          Given thet the time given to integration was focussed on learning skills not readily available at RDF level should integration be a precursor to attaining rank within the RDF?

          I suppose to qualify for integration there had to be a substantail grounding in the subjects you mentioned ... fair enough...

          Question .was there a disparagy in the foundation levels?

          Initially the prposal of inytegration was for the potential inductee to be able to take 'a career break' fromthe 9 to 5 and give apsecified commitment to integration.. this was not feasible due to employmant legislation but greater allocation of time during the normal working week to fall in in on regular training would have acheived more normailsed training rather than just having to set up an independent training regime.

          a pipe dream I know but ideally if the reservist was able to fit in with Army time as opposed to the Army having to set out alloted time the whole thing probably would have been more productive.

          My lack of actual knowledge on how the whole thing I dare say is not unique but given the situations that arose from my own units limited imput and the time frames allocated to complete courses in relation to what the PDF commit to there would seem to be huge difference in what was proposed as opposed what was achieved.

          Ok so now you've done it how can it be repackaged to make it more attractive in future.?

          How will what you have learned be applied to every day reservist?

          Has the parent unit approached the integrated peeps with a view to working forward ?

          From a persoanl aspect I have no doubt it was rewarding but how will the training be expanded throughout parent units?

          So many questions... not from a nitpicking point of view but I would like to hear from you in twelve months time and see how it worked.

          As regarding the time versus quality of training.. this has always been an area I have been interested in as I watch course run in the RDF take so long as opposed to course in the PDF which are run over far more concise period of time which while intense actually lends itself to the learning curve. Often the preesure of such learning curves uincreases the performance as oppsed to modular over six months which gives guys time to go away and give more time to thought than action.

          I can appreciate that much of your training was condensed into weekends and had to make allowances for travel etc. but was there enough time to have a full appreciation of what was being learned?

          Sorry for all the questions but I haven't had a chance to discuss the actual reality from some one who went at it from the infantry side.
          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
            Ok so now you've done it how can it be repackaged to make it more attractive in future.?

            How will what you have learned be applied to every day reservist?

            Has the parent unit approached the integrated peeps with a view to working forward ?

            From a persoanl aspect I have no doubt it was rewarding but how will the training be expanded throughout parent units?
            More attractive? The problem wasn't with the plan, it was with the implementation. No effort went into promoting it and a lot of effort went into ensuring it did not work (by individuals). Integration is a tough year - to change the training would mean removing the toughness of the training. Only the conditions can be changed - Again we are back to the legislation again. My guys wanted more - more equipment, more training, more everything. But ALL admitted that it was a hard year in terms of time off work, holiday time, personal lives. While all were glad to have done it, most said that their personal lives may not survive a 2nd year. The PDF unit took this on board and there were options being explored for year 2.... until everything went pear shaped.

            The biggest thing that we learned that could be applied to the RDF - Intolerance of poor standards, the importance of maximum effort, and attention to detail. It is not enough to show up and go through the motions - if you really want to be there, you MUST give maximum effort. Everything must be right - uniform, equipment, physical fitness, standards. And if you don't want to be there, don't let the door hit you on the way out. Integration (through LFTT) then showed the necessity for such high standards. When you are standing 20 metres in front of a guy with live ammunition and a target pops up in front of you, you are VERY glad that the TOETs were so strict. You can either the job or you can't. Stoppages on the range must be cleared by you, noone else. Noone should put up their hand if they have a stoppage. to do so (Or to be ordered to do so) means you do not have the confidence or training to do it yourself (or your instructors do think you have). if that is the case, why wasn't that picked up on in the TOETs? Why were you passed.
            It is my intention to bring this attitude back to the Non-Integrated RDF. No more messing about - you either want to be here and are willing to give 120% or get out.

            The parent PDF unit and the Integrated platoon maintained a close relationship. A lot of thought went into planning year 2. With the new contract, everything has stopped. We are no longer part of them and they see no further reason to expend scarce resources on us like they had planned. I don't blame them. They cannot go forward because noone knows which way is forward anymore. Everything seems to be going backwards.
            Or do you mean the RDF parent unit? Nothing heard from them. Prob won't hear anything from them. They seem to be happy that they are getting us back but only to make up numbers. There is continued hostility from many and hopefully most will not try to settle any scores.

            Comment


            • #21
              Hi Murph,

              You have raised some very interesting question sand ideas that I'd like to answer fully. Give me some time to write it up. Watch this space.

              Nice post!
              "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

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              • #22
                Intolerance of poor standards is something that unfortunately doesnt exist in the RDF as a whole, Integration is a great way of weeding out the pretenders!

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                • #23
                  I'm going to go with saying that it was a success on the grounds that pilot schemes can't really fail can they?
                  It did succeed in a number of areas. Firstly it succeeded in showing that communication is a big problem in the RDF. A lot of people didn't have the ideas communicated to them and sat on the fence, waiting to see how it would pan out. I would hope that the higher ups should look at the problem that lack of communication produced and do something to rectify it. Mind you, that would make far too much sense to be feasable.
                  It also suceeded in showing that integration as it was piloted was a "bad fit" for the current RDF. The evidence of this is in the reported low takeup this year and the difference in programme. Why was this? I wasn't in a position to apply so I can't say based on my own experience but a lot of people may have been worried about two main things. Work and ability. So maybe they've decided to change the program for the moment, upskill some of the RDF so it doesn't seem as daunting, at least in terms of ability, and then try for proper integration agian. Hopefully it will also raise the issue of employment protection more seriously. But again, that would make sense.

                  Also, a number of people have really gained from the training and hopefully it will be passed on back to their units. The one failure I see in this is with regards the PDF. They put in all the time and effort and have now gotten nothing back in return.
                  Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
                  Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
                  Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
                  Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by johnny no stars View Post
                    . The evidence of this is in the reported low takeup this year and the difference in programme. .

                    I would ask for people to stop raising this. The applications for 2008 have not even been processed let alone, do people have any indication of the current uptake. Suggestion to the contrary is only scaremongering. The 2008 uptake will be finalised by the start of March.

                    THEN we can comment on the numbers.
                    "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      This for me was an issue as outlined in my thoughts as yes duties are a nessacry evil but these are things that could impinge on training.. guy goews in for a weekend .. does guard on a staurday rest off sunday.. no training.
                      If you visit a post that needs a Guard then you will need to provide; this applies to the RDF as well as the PDF - so I see no difference there; many is the time I have gone on a training weekend as a two-star or three-star FCA man and done my 24...

                      A planner will see this problem coming and deal with it, but sometimes he/she doesn't have the luxury. Pay isn't usually a problem, finding spare people to run the guards are.

                      Given thet the time given to integration was focussed on learning skills not readily available at RDF level should integration be a precursor to attaining rank within the RDF?
                      no.. the more I think about it the bigger the NO gets. Skills Leadership and instruction must be attained; all the rest is technical skills from a course. Otherwise we need to change the pNCO.

                      JNS
                      It also suceeded in showing that integration as it was piloted was a "bad fit" for the current RDF. The evidence of this is in the reported low takeup this year and the difference in programme
                      reported...


                      AFAIK no difference in programme.


                      somebody point out to me the specific differences between '07 and '08
                      "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                      "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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                      • #26
                        21 days training as opposed to 33 days training

                        Although, Int Res 2008 members will be allowed train with RDF unit alos, bringing up the tally. This was only granted to Int Res 2007 later in 2007
                        "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          you watch and see how many people think they are still on their RDF unit strength.
                          "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                          "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            All the docs indicate they are not; allowed to parade with their parent RDF unit is not the same thing.


                            probably missing something so.
                            "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                            "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by apod View Post
                              Speaking from a PDF instuctors point of view i believe last years hard work has been squandered.By that i mean the return on the investment in time, money and equipment has been negligable.The whole idea was to train these folks up so they could then integrate with us.So we spent 33 days spead over a year doing this and what happens? Some numbnuts decides to change the whole thing so they are forced to re-apply and repeat all they have done allready.There should have been a progression in training not a rehash.Where's the forward planning in that? This is the same situation that happens in non integrated units esp with 2 stars.Having to repeat in year two what they did in year one.No wonder they dont stick around!
                              Also any use we could have put the lads too like taking the strain of some duties off the overstretched regular troops has been lost.
                              The new integration if you can call it that is gonna be even more devisive.What integration 2008 boils down to is an advanced skills course for the rdf.Why not just call it that.
                              It is all just a cost cutting measure as the dept wont have to pay as many PDF instrs(whenever that materialises ) and i will bet they will cut back on the scale of issue for the students as they can now argue that they dont need the same kit as us as they wont be operating alongside us.
                              In summary integation 2008 is a joke.Brought about beacuse of lack of uptake last year and naysayers who talked it down.This has played right into the dept of finances hands and probably scuppered it for future years.Back to square one.Well done!!!
                              As one who was integrated I couldnt agree more with apods comments what have we achieved? yes we have upskilled but where does that leave us I can return to integration this year but whats the point. complete a watered down version of what we done last year No Thanks ,rdf have gained upskiled fitter ncos and privatesand we are still seperate organisations pdf have gained nothing where is the integration in that .the whole thing was poorly tought out firmly place the blame at the people who planned this,

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by trellheim View Post
                                All the docs indicate they are not; allowed to parade with their parent RDF unit is not the same thing.


                                probably missing something so.
                                Integrated Persons 2008 WILL be on the strength of the RDF unit. They will be go to the PDF unit for specific Integration Training.

                                Last year, we were on the effective strength of our PDF unit. Pay, food, ammo all came from them. When we went on ex with RDF unit later in the year, the admin had to come from the PDF books for the integrated personnel

                                This year, Integrated Persons will be on the effective strength of their RDF unit and , get this, "AFFILIATED" with their PDF unit for Int Res specific training.
                                "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

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