Integration - A Failure???

[trellheim]

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deleted, this is a family forum.

[Vickers]

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deleted, this is a family forum.

Well said. I agree.

[luchi]

I would ask for people to stop raising this. The applications for 2008 have not even been processed let alone, do people have any indication of the current uptake. Suggestion to the contrary is only scaremongering. The 2008 uptake will be finalised by the start of March.

THEN we can comment on the numbers.

I am sure you can get a good impression from those in your unit as to how many are going for it. Here are the facts for my unit.
80% of last years int are not doing it this year.
With new int personnel this means out int element is only has half the number in it this year.

All the docs indicate they are not; allowed to parade with their parent RDF unit is not the same thing.


probably missing something so.

Well last night we were told that all int pers remain on our company strength and must fulfil their normal RDF weeknight/weekend and field day commitments as well as the int commitments. This will permit them to take part in unit activities they ewre excluded from last year.

It was the willingness of the integrated boys to cmoe back and use parade nights to traini this was forbidden at the outset and a blind eye turned to it.

I don't know if we were unique in that our PDF cadre officer was also over our int res. But on of our int res is, and has been for the past 2 years, our mod 3 course I/C. Since his name rank and number is on most of the course admin, if it was foobidden it would be a little difficult to turn a blind eye to???

The big differences for us are

1. Personnel are not going to another unit. i.e. they remain onthe strength of and under the command of the unit.
2. The training is to be done by TVMS run courses
3. The int element from the 3 RLSB Tpt units will be trained together.
4. Training is to offer a "fast track" for people completing mod 3.
5. RDF NCOs with instructors qualification will be the instructors, PDF instructors will only be employed if insufficient RDF instructors.

THis is what has been communicated to us so far.

The issue of communications keep getting brought up. Within our unit there has been numerous announcements and anyone who wants further info has 3 contact points to get from.
For others on this board since you are discussing things here and getting info left right and centre how can it be a problem?
Certainly for 32,34,62 and 65,67 Bns, 62 RLSB and CIS there can no communication issue, can there?

[DeV]

No Thanks ,rdf have gained upskiled fitter ncos and privatesand we are still seperate organisations pdf have gained nothing where is the integration in that .the whole thing was poorly tought out firmly place the blame at the people who planned this,

PDF's lose is the RDF's gain, remember who makes these decisions (they wear black berets). Even the new D Reserve has said integration 2007 was a failure, it was attempted it worked in some ways and didn't in others - the point is for once the lessons were learnt.

Integration 2008 is you continue in present appointment and are attached to PDF unit for periods of integrated training.

[Goldie fish]

As I understood it, the original idea for integration was that the Int people would be upskilled, and would be able to return to their unit to teach their unit their newly found skills.
However the PDF seem to have been sold a different story. They were sold the Idea that the int people would be extra bods for them, indeed there is a possibility that some PDF units had vacancies left empty as it was assumed the Int people would hold these positions in the establishment, during their term of service in the parent unit.

So from reading here neither side seem to have achieved the goal. The RDF people don't feel they were int long enough to make a useful influence on RDF training, and feel they are being RTUd prematurely. The PDF similarly feel that the effort they put in to training their RDF charges is wasted if these people are now to return to their RDF units, and a new batch of integrated begins. I understand that all of last years Int people, who agreed to participate for 2 years initially, have the option to continue for the second year. However from here on am I mistaken in thinking that the engagement is only for a 12 month period?

[trellheim]

from the white paper on Defence, 2000
One element will provide personnel who will integrate with PDF units to bring them up to full operational strength in a contingency situation. These integrated RDF personnel - who will be described as "The Integrated Reserve" - will be provided with enhanced military training and career development opportunities, and will receive the appropriate equipment. PDF unit commanders will be responsible for the training of the RDF personnel integrated in their units.

[apod]

And now this is no longer the case with pdf unit commanders having nothing to do with integration and the bodies no longer part of the pdf unit.So what good is it?None ,except to the rdf.Well thats a good idea as it will hopefully raise standards etc but a total contradiction of the goal printed in the last post.
UNLESS.............
year one (2008) rdf trained centrally by the bdes,similar to pdf recruits/2*s.
year two. rdf troops posted to pdf units within the bde.Continuation training done by the units.
That could actually work and masbe is a better way forward???

[DeV]

The people in 2007 were upskilled yes are they now qualified to instruct in their non-integrated units on these skills, maybe on some of the tactics yes but are the officers & NCOs now instructors (in for example SRAAW, M203, grenade, or qualifed to conduct LFTT)????

Its the same as the YE weapons course that have been run. The NCOs & officers on these courses are not correctly trained in order to deploy, training and supervise training during the rest of the year in their own unit.

[DeV]

AFAIK the PDF CO is still responsible for the training of integrated reservists and is responsible for them during there attachment.

[trellheim]

LISW Instructor is available to RDF but is too long for most people 8 weeks I believe, same for LFTT . The other ones are done as part of PDF pNCO & cadet Afaik and do not have their own module.

YE weps cses not designed to generate instructors.

The people in 2007 were upskilled yes are they now qualified to instruct in their non-integrated units on these skills, maybe on some of the tactics yes but are the officers & NCOs now instructors (in for example SRAAW, M203, grenade, or qualifed to conduct LFTT)????

Its the same as the YE weapons course that have been run. The NCOs & officers on these courses are not correctly trained in order to deploy, training and supervise training during the rest of the year in their own unit.

- that's not the point of Integration IMHO except as a spinoff benefit , some are treating this as the main event.

[hedgehog]

YE weps cses not designed to generate instructors

Its the stepping stone though

you have or should be a YE on the weapon before you go and do an instructors cse

[Docman]

Even the new D Reserve has said integration 2007 was a failure, it was attempted it worked in some ways and didn't in others - the point is for once the lessons were learnt.

Interesting - most of my Integrated guys believe that no lessons were learned - in fact the army is repeating all last years mistakes and adding a few more.

If 2007 failed it was due to poor army support for Integration compounded by lack of information & instructions..... beginning to sound like 2008???

[apod]

If 2007 failed it was due to poor army support

Rephrase that fast! You got all the support we could give ye and more!

[apod]

The people in 2007 were upskilled yes are they now qualified to instruct in their non-integrated units on these skills, maybe on some of the tactics yes but are the officers & NCOs now instructors (in for example SRAAW, M203, grenade, or qualifed to conduct LFTT)????

No.No instructotrs training was conducted during integration 2007 for infantry.However most of the ncos would allready be instructors in most of the basic weapons.SRAAW and HK would have been a bonus along with M203 but their wasnt time.

[Docman]

Rephrase that fast! You got all the support we could give ye and more!

You know what I meant - Army as in MA - the people who make the big decisions.

No question about full support from the PDF Infantry Bns - it was there.